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Guest WoobiesMom
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Guest WoobiesMom

Ok, I've been struggling with Mr. Woobs and his silly soft stools since I got him about 7 months ago. Intestinal parasites have been ruled out and I've tried 3 foods so far. Nutros, Science Diet for Sensitive Stomachs, and most recently, Merrick's Grandma's Pot Pie. I've been supplementing white rice and pumpkin. The stools have gotten more runny which makes me suspect rice as a possible culprit. I gave him about 3 tablespoons of a sample of Natural Balance's Sweet Potato and Fish kibble and now he's got full on diarrhea now.

 

So, I read a bunch about raw and all the threads using the search function. I think it's something I want to try with him to see if the introduction of high protein, bones and the elimination of carbs will help his allergies and soft stools. I would like to try to do what Irene does in combining kibble and raw. I noted in one of her posts that she feeds kibble in the morning and raw at night. Has there been any problems? I read elsewhere that the kibble can slow down the digestive process and cause the bones to get stuck where if the dog was eating only raw, the process through the digestive track would be rather quick and there'd be less chance of obstruction. Does anyone else feed both? Have you had problems? Would you introduce the raw first or the new kibble first? Or given that he's already got the diarrhea, would a full on cold turkey change be that detrimental? I'm trying NB Potato and Duck next and have about 2 weeks worth of the Merrick's left. Is that enough of a transition time?

 

The other question I had was something AK doc said about dogs getting salmonella from raw foods. Is enough to freeze the chicken before feeding it to eliminate the chances of bacterial contamination or should I flash boil it prior to feeding. Last thing I want is to put poor Woobs through food poisoning just to firm up his poops and address his allergies.

 

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to do it right and avoid more vet bills and get my poor dog off Benadryl. It helps, but I don't like his sluggishness when he's on it.

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Be very careful here, because some of what you are describing sounds like he may have an ultra-sensitive system, rather than allergies alone. They can definitely go together, or a dog can have one or the other. It's just careful experimentation that can really give you a definitive answer, if one is even possible.

 

One thing I'd try first is maybe a week of resting his system with some very bland food. Maybe boiled hamburger and potatoes, since rice is on the suspect list. If he gets better, you have a baseline to start out with. Then try reducing the potatoes for a few meals and see how he reacts. If he gets better, then raw or carb free might be the way to go for you. If not, then it isn't carbs that are the problem.

 

Then switch slowly back over to a kibble you are thinking of trying. Don't mix anything else in. If he does well, then he's probably got a sensitive tummy and you've just got to be really careful about offering a lot of different foods or changing things really fast.

 

If he does worse on more hamburger, try mixing in a fiber source - either those fiber cookies (make sure he's got plenty of fresh water available), or pureed veggies of some kind. I'd stay away from pumpkin at this point since you've already exposed him to that. Some dogs need fiber - their tummies need junk to keep things moving. If this improves things, you can either go to a raw diet with pureed veggies (very nice) or a kibble with more fiber - I like Cal Natural's Reduced Calorie and Canidae Platinum.

 

If there's a dramatic change in his allergic symptoms when he is on the bland diet, then you'll have to be careful with the foods you try. At that point it might be a good idea to look into a raw or home prepared diet, as you'll most likely find that trying to find a food that is both hypoallergenic and suitable for sensitive tummies is nigh on impossible. Welcome to my world!

 

Handle raw meat just as you would for people. If you don't give the bugs a chance to grow, there is very little risk that there will be more contamination present in the meat, than your dog's system can handle. Salmonella is active in the intestinal tract, where food moves extremely quickly in dogs. Food is held for a long time in the stomach, on the other hand, compared to people. This gives soft raw bones time to break down and helps reduce the bad bugs. Not to say dogs never get food poisoning, but it's much, much harder than with people.

 

I don't think freezing does anything to salmonella, but you can pour boiling water over the surface of any meat you serve up. Most of the icky stuff is on the surface, especially in the case of chicken. I slightly cook eggs and toast eggshells that I serve, unless I get free range eggs. Chicken/eggs are the highest risk for salmonella, and beef is the highest risk for e-coli. Risk factors for dogs are the same - geratric, neonatal, immune suppressed, highly stressed. I don't introduce raw food to my rescues until I'm sure they are healthy.

 

Well, that was my book for today. Hope this helps some and good luck!

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Guest WoobiesMom

Thanks so much for your reply Irene! When I started this lil journey, the vet had me put him on boiled (and rinsed) hamburger and white rice for a week. He firmed up slightly on that. The only kibble that's ever produced truly firm stools was the Science Diet Sensitive Stomach formula and that was before these allergy symptoms showed up (ear infection, butt nibbling, face rubbing, stomach chewing). He also would not eat it by itself, I had to mix it with Nutros and after a while he'd pick out whatever was around it and leave the SD lying about. He'd even lick off the pumpkin and leave the SD! :rolleyes:

 

I was going to try raw chicken wings as the start of an elimination diet and try the grain free kibble from Natural Balance. Do you think that's too much change at once? The new kibble I was going to try is potato and duck, neither of which he's had before. He's handled chicken as a treat before w/o too much trouble (but never raw). I thought the introduction of some bone might help firm him up, but I'm worried the wings I bought might be too small and I should have gotten breasts and thighs instead.

 

I'm so confused about what to do next (or first)! My vet just wants to sell me the uber-expensive prescription kibble!

 

Also, what do you guys give as recreational gnawing bones (if anything)? His teeth are already dirty and stained at 1 yr old and I read that those help.

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I would personally start with a frozen ground raw product first, something that has bones ground in. The ground bones more than anything else seem particularly useful for firming up stool, and this way you can start without worrying about irritating Woobie's insides with whole bone. I feed ground raw from Hare Today, Primal, and Nature's Variety as part of my dogs' diet. The latter two brands are available as "complete" diets that meet AAFCO standards. Hare Today is as close as you can get to feeding an entire ground carcass (for example, the ground rabbit contains everything except the stomach and intestines, including the head and the fur) so I feel pretty confident about that product as well. I like to switch around for variety's sake. I don't feed these products as my dogs' entire diet because the cost is prohibitive, but if price were no object and I had a large freezer I probably would. My dogs do very well on them.

 

Contrary to what you'd expect given popular belief, my dogs do not have dirty teeth. Despite the fact that they never get recreational bones, their teeth are ridiculously white and shiny. I don't know why, but they just are, always have been. For chews my dogs get bully sticks, rawhide chips, and dehydrated tracheas. Now, don't get me wrong, recreational bones WILL get your dog's teeth snow white, but both of mine have broken teeth on recreational bones so they can't have them anymore, and I would not recommend them for other dogs based on my experience. That said, many people give their dogs marrow bones, soup bones, neck bones, etc. and their dogs never break teeth, so it depends on how lucky you feel and how willing you are to pay for the root canal if your dog does break a tooth after all.

 

Solo's digestive system has become more sensitive as he gets older (which seems to be not that uncommon with aging dogs that have anxiety issues) so I no longer feed him any whole bone with the exception of occasional chicken carcasses, as anything more rugged makes him sick, despite the fact that he is the most thorough chewer of any dog who ever lived. (He will even take the time to fully chew individual pieces of kibble.) Solo has never had diarrhea from ground raw. I prefer the products that are not veggie-heavy -- some have so much vegetable in them that they're practically green. Solo dislikes these (remember for Solo veggies = !food), and I don't like paying that much for cheap vegetable ingredients that I could add myself if I really wanted to. This is also why I am not a fan of the freeze-dried Honest Kitchen products that are meant to be rehydrated and added to raw meat -- they are mostly vegetable. (For this reason, Solo dislikes them as well.)

 

I am lucky in San Francisco in that it is very easy to go to almost any retail outlet and buy frozen raw, and there's also an excellent raw feeders co-op that allows me to order it at lower prices. I'm not sure what's in your area, but many products such as Hare Today can be ordered online.

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I am lucky in San Francisco in that it is very easy to go to almost any retail outlet and buy frozen raw, and there's also an excellent raw feeders co-op that allows me to order it at lower prices.

 

Oh, yeah, rub it in . . .

 

I've used Primal and Nature's Variety, and would love to use the Hare Today whole rabbit if my budget allowed. I probably will someday when I'm balancing Ben's food costs against potential vet bills. :rolleyes: He does wonderfully on whole carcasses - duck, goose, rabbit, other small game animals (he's even had beaver!). But, he eats like, pounds a day. Someday when my car is paid off or something, maybe . . .

 

Ben just reminded me again of why he's on special food. We came home from a quick run to town to find diarrhea from one end of the house to the other. :D Ben had found a dish of leftover gravy from the Salibury steak dinner we had last night. The little bit of flour in that made him explode. Ah yes, I love Ben very much . . .

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I had similar problems with Dean when we first adopted him - constant soft stools, gas, frequent tummy upset, and weight loss. Parasites were ruled out and the vet deemed him healthy and recommended that I get him a food with more carbs. Since I raw feed Speedy, I decided to try Dean on raw first.

 

I started him on plain muscle meat - either ground beef or ground turkey. That's all he ate for about a week. Lo and behold, all of the problems cleared up immediately. I added bone in from there - necks, backs, quarters, and then veggies.

 

He hasn't had a single digestive problem since except if I give him cheese, which I don't anymore, or when all of the dogs had a bit of a stomach flu about a month ago.

 

I'm not saying that's going to be the solution for you, but that's what I did and he's thriving now.

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Guest WoobiesMom

I'm going to start with ground chicken tomorrow and maybe throw in some cooked potato as well. I want to get his diet down to one or two simple ingredients, see how he does and then build from there. I wouldn't mind commercial kibble if I could find something that agrees with him. I don't feel like I'm a nutritional expert and that I can figure out the right formulation of nutrients for him on my own. I'm concerned about issues related to a diet that's too high in something and lacking in something else. What do I know? Not much. :rolleyes:

 

For those of you who do feed raw backs, necks, carcasses, etc.... first, what the heck is a chicken back and where would you get one? and have you had issues with bones? I saw some scary stories on the internet about bony impactions, splinters, perforated esophaguses (esophagi?) and stomachs, etc. That was enough to scare me off the idea. How expensive are those frozen or freeze dried products? I found stores in my area that stock them, just can't find any prices listed. Is it essential to have the bone included in the diet or can a supplement of bone meal or calcium do the same trick?

 

I kept him off the Benadryl today and it was such a joy to see him his old self at the dog park, outrunning the other dogs and being his happy, bouncy self even if it meant lots of butt munching and head rubbing today. I also picked up a big marrow bone that he went crazy for and his teeth look cleaner already! He doesn't appear to be an overly aggressive chewer and I supervised and took it away from him after about an hour and put it in the freezer. I don't think he's at much risk of breaking a tooth if I supervise and keep his access to it limited.

 

I thought I only had a few questions! Ha! This is a pain! I thought I was over this health stuff when I got a "mutt". No such luck!

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Guest WoobiesMom

OMG! $23.99 for a pound of Nature's Variety Freeze Dried Chicken & Turkey Medallions !!!!! That's SO NOT HAPPENING! I'll grind chicken bones myself with a mortar and pestle(sp?)!!! Their dry food seems a little better though.

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Oh, don't look at the freeze dried. That's like the equivalent of four or five pounds of fresh food (I forget how much). Maybe more. You want the fresh frozen raw. I can get it around here for about $22 for, um, I forget how much but it lasts Maggie about two weeks. It's just a supplementary thing for Ben when I can get the rabbit.

 

Take a look at the Hare Today products - and Aunt Jeni is really close to you geographically. There's another one I've heard good things about and when I was comparision shopping prices on odd things like goat and kangaroo they had by far the best deals. Darned if I haven't gone and lost the bookmark, though.

 

If I had one or two dogs only and those didn't have allergies, I'd probably do a combination of ground whole beasties, and this: http://www.knowbetterdogfood.com/ I use their product for cats, for our grey stripey kitty - it's wonderful and he thinks it's kitty crack. Of course, he eats sheep feed happily, so it's hard to judge by him. :rolleyes:

 

My personal theory about the teeth is low carbs. That and genetics. If there's no sugar in a dog's diet to feed the plaque, tartar won't build up, unless the dog has naturally soft enamel (that does happen). That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :D

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I've used Primal and Nature's Variety, and would love to use the Hare Today whole rabbit if my budget allowed. I probably will someday when I'm balancing Ben's food costs against potential vet bills. :rolleyes: He does wonderfully on whole carcasses - duck, goose, rabbit, other small game animals (he's even had beaver!). But, he eats like, pounds a day. Someday when my car is paid off or something, maybe . . .

 

I'm kinda surprised that Primal is available on the east coast -- it's local and I never saw it until I moved here. I just now recalled that the Primal complete diet is one of the ones that has a lot of produce in it, so I stopped buying that one. When I give them the Primal grinds which are just meat, bone, and organs I usually do that for breakfast and then kibble for dinner so it's about one third of their diet on those days. Nature's Variety, if I remember correctly, balances the diet by adding supplements rather than trying to do it with veggies. It isn't as "natural" but I prefer supplements to roughage my dogs can't really digest anyway.

 

How much does Ben eat a day? If Solo's eating raw he only gets a bit over a pound a day, or 2% of his body weight, which is the usual recommendation.

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Primal is a mail order product here - but I've seen it at one place in the Triangle, too. That was how I got it that time. I think it was Primal.

 

Ben needs minimally around 7% of his weight, and sometimes up to 10% depending on the actual energy provided by the meat. His ideal weight is about 47 pounds, and to maintain that on meat alone I have to keep him right around that 10% mark. I've done that in real life exactly once - the winter we discovered his chicken allergy. He ate, in a week, two seven to eleven pound ducks, about two pounds per day of other kinds of meat, then he'd take a day off entirely somewhere in there. He looked awesome but after we ran out of homegrown stuff he was literally eating us out fo house and home! When you can't feed chicken it gets expensive to do that.

 

What we do now is feed him about two and a half cups of NB duck a day, plus about a pound of RMBs, plus some topper on the kibble like homeade stew or canned food (maybe a cup), plus some canned fish. I also have a meatball recipe for after a big workout - they get them frozen after they have cooled down some - the other dogs' recipe has raw meat plus grain appropriate for the season, while Ben's is meat and potato "flour".

 

Ben isn't the most intense feeder I've had here. Little Jen had to eat around 15% of her body weight to stay in condition. When we were trying to do all raw, I finally figured out that I had to feed her three or more meals through the day, like a puppy, so she could get the three or so pounds of food required, on board (she weighs about 20 pounds in top condition). She was the reason we switched to Volhard-style - that was just crazy.

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Guest WoobiesMom
What we do now is feed him about two and a half cups of NB duck a day, plus about a pound of RMBs, plus some topper on the kibble like homeade stew or canned food (maybe a cup), plus some canned fish. I also have a meatball recipe for after a big workout -

 

This is what I'm shooting for. I can get the NB duck at Petco and the cost is something I can manage, I don't mind making the stew (the raw bones scare me a bit at this point). Could you send me your meatball recipe?

 

Geez, I hope Woobie isn't allergic to chicken! Guess we'll find out this week.

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