NancyO Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 Hi Jeanne, I have a 20 month old that has been coming along. I've been away and haven't worked him for about 2 weeks, a very good friend stayed at my farm and watched my dogs for me while I was gone (she did not work any of the dogs). Before I left I had been working on pushing him out on his outrun. He has been coming in around 2-1 o'clock and 10-11 o'clock and being somewhat flat at the top. I had been working him up close, around 50 yards, and stopping him as he starts to come in and then giving him a get out. He seemed to have caught on. He has a nice lift, can stop him if needed, but don't usually as long as he is lifting nicely. Yesterday when I worked him for a short time, after I returned from my trip, I sent him about 125 yards, he was a little slow going, as he got to the 2-1 o'clock spot (where I normally would have stopped him and given him the get out) he slowed even more, turned his head out and kicked out wider. He did this both sides. I was concerned about the slowness (not excessively slow, but slower than I would want a dog outrunning, he doesn't have alot of eye, so I wasn't worried that his eye was slowing him up) but happy to see him thinking about what he was doing. My tendency at this time, would be to let him be a little slow on the outrun and let him work it out. But was not sure. Let me know what you think. Nancy O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r b m Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 *Novice alert Sienna had/has this same exact problem. I say that because some days she has the most beautiful outrun, others.. well let's just say not so much. Using the "get back" has worked, but not always. I personally don't like it, but my trainer uses it. I'd recommend trying this: Let your dog find balance, have him lie down while you back up, with the sheep following you, extending the distance to your liking. Make sure he stays put. Step off to the left or right, maybe 10 yards which ever way you want him to go, and get between him and the sheep but closer to the sheep. Don't let him move to balance, which he will most likely want to do. Now the dog, sheep and you should form almost an L shape, depending where you are. Give him the proper command to flank towards you. This is also a good off balance exercise, your dog may think you're crazy for asking but if you have good trust, you'll be fine. Now that your dog HAS to go around you, he should start to understand the concept of getting deeper. Don't put too much pressure on him by hollering or using a staff as he comes around, give encouragement if he hesitates. Sending him in a direction where he's covering a draw will help too. Don't let him circle, back up and let him find the fetch again. Repeat process. This is helpful in widening flanks too, but after all, isn't an outrun just one very large flank? Hope this helps Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r b m Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 My fault for posting... won't happen again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Hi Jeanne, I have a 20 month old that has been coming along. I've been away and haven't worked him for about 2 weeks, a very good friend stayed at my farm and watched my dogs for me while I was gone (she did not work any of the dogs). Before I left I had been working on pushing him out on his outrun. He has been coming in around 2-1 o'clock and 10-11 o'clock and being somewhat flat at the top. I had been working him up close, around 50 yards, and stopping him as he starts to come in and then giving him a get out. He seemed to have caught on. He has a nice lift, can stop him if needed, but don't usually as long as he is lifting nicely. Yesterday when I worked him for a short time, after I returned from my trip, I sent him about 125 yards, he was a little slow going, as he got to the 2-1 o'clock spot (where I normally would have stopped him and given him the get out) he slowed even more, turned his head out and kicked out wider. He did this both sides. I was concerned about the slowness (not excessively slow, but slower than I would want a dog outrunning, he doesn't have alot of eye, so I wasn't worried that his eye was slowing him up) but happy to see him thinking about what he was doing. My tendency at this time, would be to let him be a little slow on the outrun and let him work it out. But was not sure. Let me know what you think. Nancy O Hi Nancy, It sounds like he is trying hard to do as you wish, but is being cautious because it isn't totally comfortable yet, or he wants to be sure he's doing the right thing. I would give him the benefit of the doubt for a while, as long as he remembers to correct. If he doesn't start to speed up as he gains more confidence, then you might give him an extra flank command or shush him a bit. You said that you sent him 125 yds. Could it be that he's not yet comfortable with that distance? Jeanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 *Novice alert Sienna had/has this same exact problem. I say that because some days she has the most beautiful outrun, others.. well let's just say not so much. Using the "get back" has worked, but not always. I personally don't like it, but my trainer uses it. I'd recommend trying this: Let your dog find balance, have him lie down while you back up, with the sheep following you, extending the distance to your liking. Make sure he stays put. Step off to the left or right, maybe 10 yards which ever way you want him to go, and get between him and the sheep but closer to the sheep. Don't let him move to balance, which he will most likely want to do. Now the dog, sheep and you should form almost an L shape, depending where you are. Give him the proper command to flank towards you. This is also a good off balance exercise, your dog may think you're crazy for asking but if you have good trust, you'll be fine. Now that your dog HAS to go around you, he should start to understand the concept of getting deeper. Don't put too much pressure on him by hollering or using a staff as he comes around, give encouragement if he hesitates. Sending him in a direction where he's covering a draw will help too. Don't let him circle, back up and let him find the fetch again. Repeat process. This is helpful in widening flanks too, but after all, isn't an outrun just one very large flank? Hope this helps Richard Richard, The point of stopping the dog, getting between him and the sheep and asking him to give to pressure as he flanks, is to teach the dog to think, when he normally wants to come in, that "oh yeah" I'm supposed to kick out here. You're teaching a permanent thought process. it's important to be consistant with this, or the dog won't "get it". Jeanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyO Posted July 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Hi Jeanne, Thanks for the suggestion. Worked him yesterday in the heat of the day, as I worked in the morning and last evening. Sheep were out about the same distance again. He left my feet with a decent speed, around 9 o'clock, I could see him checking in (without slowing down) and continued to cast himself out wider and continued to check in and cast out till he ended up at a nice distance behind his sheep, and was not flat at the top. I'll keep an eye on him and do what you suggest with the shush or extra flank command if i see him slowing up again. Jeanne wrote: You said that you sent him 125 yds. Could it be that he's not yet comfortable with that distance? Yes, he's not real comfortable with that distance yet, I've been trying to lengthen his outrun, hence the reason that I've been stopping him and pushing him out. Maybe one of these days I'll have one of those natural outrunning dogs, a pleasure yet to come See you in Canada? Nancy O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Hi Jeanne, Thanks for the suggestion. Worked him yesterday in the heat of the day, as I worked in the morning and last evening. Sheep were out about the same distance again. He left my feet with a decent speed, around 9 o'clock, I could see him checking in (without slowing down) and continued to cast himself out wider and continued to check in and cast out till he ended up at a nice distance behind his sheep, and was not flat at the top. I'll keep an eye on him and do what you suggest with the shush or extra flank command if i see him slowing up again. Jeanne wrote: Yes, he's not real comfortable with that distance yet, I've been trying to lengthen his outrun, hence the reason that I've been stopping him and pushing him out. Maybe one of these days I'll have one of those natural outrunning dogs, a pleasure yet to come See you in Canada? Nancy O [/ I think even naturally talented outrunners still need to go through the steps of learning. Then, all of a sudden, they're ready to go the distance, and run out like they've been doing it all their lives. The trick is to be patient and don't destroy the natural talent. I wouldn't willingly miss Kingston. It's one of my favorite trials, so see you there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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