What would you do?

[Moss]

I have two collies I am training on sheep. Both dogs are 2 years old.

 

A bit of background may help. I am training the dogs primarily as work dogs for when I move up to be with my boyfriend in Scotland in September. He is a shepherd and between us we will be responsible for the care of 3500 sheep and lambs. My second reason for training is that I would really like to have a go at trialling. I currently train my dogs with a world renowned handler and trainer and am more than happy with the lessons we have once a week. I have also had the opportunity recently of training at a farm belonging to another novice hander from our lessons. I thought this was doing us all the world of good.

 

However, I have just spent a week in Scotland helping out with marking lambs and taking ewes and lambs back to the hill, which was great. I also wanted to show off how our training had progressed since my boyfriend last saw us training, but to be honest he wasn't really impressed He said that I had improved no end, but that Moss, in particular, appeared to be lacking in confidence and seemed worried some of the time. I think this is because at the training class we are basically training our dogs for the trials field, with little or no practical work being done at all. My boyfriend thinks we should lay off formal training for a while and just let the dogs start to enjoy the sessions again. I am moving to Scotland in September, and he says that some good honest work should bring out the best in both my dogs and that I shouldn't get stressed over it.

 

What would you do in this situation? Thanks.

[Laurae]

Hi Kirsty,

I am still a novice, and I'm certain the more experienced voices will chime in. But could the tentativeness simply have been that your dogs (who are still learning) were put in a completely new situation with completely new sheep and asked to do things they've not done before? And once they understand what is expected of them up in your boyfriend's environment, they will settle and work to the level you know they are capable of?

[kelpiegirl]

I think there is some wisdom in what your boyfriend says. I had to take a look at what I was doing- wanting THIS done THIS way, and THAT done THAT way, and not looking at the big picture. THere is no reason to rush- don't put any time limits on it. Maybe work Moss on things that is is confident with for a bit, and every once in a while bring it up a notch. I like what your boyfriend said in that last sentence

Julie

 

 

I have two collies I am training on sheep. Both dogs are 2 years old.

 

A bit of background may help. I am training the dogs primarily as work dogs for when I move up to be with my boyfriend in Scotland in September. He is a shepherd and between us we will be responsible for the care of 3500 sheep and lambs. My second reason for training is that I would really like to have a go at trialling. I currently train my dogs with a world renowned handler and trainer and am more than happy with the lessons we have once a week. I have also had the opportunity recently of training at a farm belonging to another novice hander from our lessons. I thought this was doing us all the world of good.

 

However, I have just spent a week in Scotland helping out with marking lambs and taking ewes and lambs back to the hill, which was great. I also wanted to show off how our training had progressed since my boyfriend last saw us training, but to be honest he wasn't really impressed He said that I had improved no end, but that Moss, in particular, appeared to be lacking in confidence and seemed worried some of the time. I think this is because at the training class we are basically training our dogs for the trials field, with little or no practical work being done at all. My boyfriend thinks we should lay off formal training for a while and just let the dogs start to enjoy the sessions again. I am moving to Scotland in September, and he says that some good honest work should bring out the best in both my dogs and that I shouldn't get stressed over it.

 

What would you do in this situation? Thanks.

[C Crocker]

I think there is some wisdom in what your boyfriend says. I had to take a look at what I was doing- wanting THIS done THIS way, and THAT done THAT way, and not looking at the big picture. THere is no reason to rush- don't put any time limits on it. Maybe work Moss on things that is is confident with for a bit, and every once in a while bring it up a notch. I like what your boyfriend said in that last sentence

Julie

[/quote

 

 

My limited experience is with my now 3 yr old border collie, who was trained /trialed by a trainer last year in the Nursery . During her training she was used quite a bit for daily chores, including moving ewes/lambs. She is a good enough dog to place high at last year's Nursery Finals in Oregon but useful enough for everyday work.

 

That said, I have had her home since right at the Nationals last October, taking lessons every week and working her at home and also using her for chores. What I have to be careful of is getting too "sloppy" at home so that my dog thinks she can just come onto the sheep as she pleases in a lesson/trial situation. Since there are not really lines to be held as she moves sheep around my horses trailers, through barns, etc it is easy to let them get to slicing a bit . I guess it is a fine line--my trainer was dead on on how to get her 'correct' while still getting her chores done.

 

I have to say, chores are actually fun when you have a dog who can think for themselves and also be so trained they will do as you say when needed. I say try and mix up the work, as even in a trial the situations are not perfect and the dog has to be flexible. I know that at this time Lyn is about 85% of our team as she has all the breeding, instinct and training and I rely on her to get it done. And for me what is the best is that my Lyn does all this with a novice, me!

 

Carolyn

[Moss]

Thanks for the replies. I agree with what you have all said. I think I am going to continue with some relaxed training sessions down here, but put no pressure on either dog, and when I get up to Scotland in 3 months give them both plenty of practical work and then see how we go from there.

 

Thanks again

[stockdogranch]

There's just nothing like real work to get the dog comfortable in all situations. I agree with the BF,

Anna

[juliepoudrier]

I personally think that dogs learn way faster from practical tasks than they do from mindless drilling (it's more interesting and it has obvious purpose). I taught my 16-month-old to drive simply by using her to push the whole flock off the feed bunks this winter (they weren't easily deterred so she had to take off balance flanks to catch those trying to do end runs around her, push hard against the pressure, and hold them while I went for a second bucket to fill additional bunks--all excellent skills she needed to know but with a real purpose in a real work situation). Training a dog to drive is pretty difficult, but the practical work made sense to her and she got it in no time. So I guess I agree with your boyfriend--practical work can make a huge difference in training. And as someone pointed out, practical doesn't mean sloppy. Sometimes if I'm in a *huge* hurry I'll get it done any way I can, but in general I expect the dogs to do it right (basically trial standard for the most part--that is, precise and correct) when we're doing chores, so chore work is also a training session. Remember that going from a small training area to a hill with a flock numbering in the thousands is a *huge* leap for even a seasoned dog, much less a novice dog. Don't expect too much from yours at first, and they will get it! I'm jealous of where you'll be in just a few months!

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I did see a lot of stopping and flank commands in the videos you posted. Such things are important to know, but your SO knows your dogs will need to be able to take control of the sheep a great deal on their own in their new life soon. You'll want to let them do a lot of things that help them learn to think. I know why you are troubled though. I had exactly the same conflict at this stage of my training, but never figured it out until very recently.

 

I have a little dog here that everyone (not the people who sold him to me) told me would have to learn to work on his own, no commands, just learn to do farm chores on his own. I "gave him his head" for about three months and then went to a clinic, and the instructor put me over a barrel for what I'd done. Since then I've been gradually teaching him (dog, not instructor) that his job is to control the sheep and [/i] my [/i] job is to make sure everything goes smoothly - and if he listens to me when I speak, life goes on and a hole does not open up in the space/time continuum and suck everything in, as he seemed to think previously.

 

Good luck! I feel your pain, but I know you will be fine - you've got a great situation, great instructors, and a lovely, lovely life which I am trying very hard not to envy like crazy.

[Moss]

Thanks Becca It is easy to worry yourself stupid over what is the wrong or right way!

 

Regarding the over-commanding, I remember when I first started going to the training classes and I was amazed/shocked at just how many commands were given to the beginner dogs. I had been used to my boyfriend's way of training - very natural with few commands.

 

I now realise I have become just the same as the other novices I saw that first night

 

To an extent, it's difficult for me to speak out about the way I want to train my dogs, because I am a newbie to all of this, and I bow to the superior knowledge of my trainer and some of the others at the classes, but I do trust my boyfriend's advice, and am sure I want to go a more natural route, taking out all but a minimum of commands for now.

 

Once up in Scotland (only 3 months to go! yippee!) I am sure it will all become clear

 

Thanks for your advice and support, it is much appreciated.

[Moss]

in general I expect the dogs to do it right (basically trial standard for the most part--that is, precise and correct) when we're doing chores, so chore work is also a training session. Remember that going from a small training area to a hill with a flock numbering in the thousands is a *huge* leap for even a seasoned dog, much less a novice dog. Don't expect too much from yours at first, and they will get it! I'm jealous of where you'll be in just a few months!

 

J.

 

Thanks Julie, and everyone else for your replies. I think you are all echoing how I feel inside about this.

 

Thanks again.

[Guest carol campion]

Kirsten

 

I read your post and understand your quandry. You need to ask yourself if your dog is trained enough to take on such new challenges.

 

I have been to Scotland and done lambings on a big hill farm and work in the borders tagging and gathering and sorting, so I am familiar with what the work is that the dogs need to do in these instances.

 

Everything about the work there is different from what he is used to. You don't mention what kind of sheep are on this farm in Scotland. Are they Cheviots or Blackies? WHatever they are, I am sure they are not Herwicks and so would be very different. Depending on how much training he has under his belt, the difference in the reactions towards him of the sheep alone and then your handling of these different sheep might cause Moss concern.

 

Depending on the line of dogs he is from, he will thrive from a "just let him work" method or may blossom better in the more structured way.

 

All dogs entering a work situation need some kind of tools to deal with the work. Any work. And tools are commands. Commands in training also can help a dog engage his mind on a different way than the freedom of working on his own. The trick in being a good trainer is to blend the natural with the commanding/obedience. It is like a dance and the steps are always changing. If you get into a situation he is uncomfortable with, you can fall back on using commands to give it structure an help him and then gradually let go of the structure as he becomes more familiar with the task. If things get dicey, you can always step back in with structure to help him. As he gains confidence, you need fewer commands. And once he is used to the idea there may be commands, he will not fight giving up his instinctive hold on sheep at times where it is necessary. A good work dog and a good trial dog is a blend of instinct & obedience. It is that partnership.

 

All dogs learn differently as well, depending on the way they are bred. Some learn and can grasp a big job all at once, some need jobs broken down and they need to learn facets of it before they can put it all together. I would advise you take a good look at your dog and try to assess how he learns. Try to get a sense of this before taking him to do some new task that may be over his head. Talk to T.L about this and tell him the parts of the job/session up north that was too much for him. It will give T.L. insight into what Moss did not transfer over to new tasks and may require you approach your training from a new viewpoint. Moss may be ready for a new level of training.

 

Another thing you might do is go to a third party. You have Derek Scrimgoer in the Lake district and Julie Hill and Bobby Henderson in the borders as well as Bobby Dalziel. Julie especially is now set up to do lessons and is someone who does a tremendous job at all aspects of dog work. Her Tess is a perfect example-high qualifier this past year at the International and hill dog at home.

 

An objective observer might be the thing needed here!

 

Trust your instincts. Ou know your dogs best.

 

Good luck and hope this helps.

 

carol

[gvmama]

I personally think that dogs learn way faster from practical tasks than they do from mindless drilling (it's more interesting and it has obvious purpose). I taught my 16-month-old to drive simply by using her to push the whole flock off the feed bunks this winter (they weren't easily deterred so she had to take off balance flanks to catch those trying to do end runs around her, push hard against the pressure, and hold them while I went for a second bucket to fill additional bunks--all excellent skills she needed to know but with a real purpose in a real work situation). Training a dog to drive is pretty difficult, but the practical work made sense to her and she got it in no time. So I guess I agree with your boyfriend--practical work can make a huge difference in training. And as someone pointed out, practical doesn't mean sloppy. Sometimes if I'm in a *huge* hurry I'll get it done any way I can, but in general I expect the dogs to do it right (basically trial standard for the most part--that is, precise and correct) when we're doing chores, so chore work is also a training session. Remember that going from a small training area to a hill with a flock numbering in the thousands is a *huge* leap for even a seasoned dog, much less a novice dog. Don't expect too much from yours at first, and they will get it! I'm jealous of where you'll be in just a few months!

 

J.

[gvmama]

Hi...I'm a junior member. First time I've been called junior in quite awhile! LOL Anyway, I am new to the BC Boards and I'm still figuring out the workings of posting. Just as I am still figuring out the best way to go about working my BC's on stock. I don't have sheep of my own, but I do venture out about 3 times a week to ranches with sheep.

I have a tense, reactive, pushy 2 yr. old who needs drilling from time to time. After she shows me what I'd like to see, I let her do some non regimented type of work. It's the "premack principle"....you do what I want and I'll let you do what you want (with supervision). :0) I may drill for a few minutes in a circle on her flanks and then I might let her move a flock of sheep in any manner she deems necessary without allowing her to cause any undue stress on them. I have to make the most of my works whiile keeping it varied and interesting. I don't think anything can replace practical ranch work for gaining experience and confidence.

Suzanne

P.S. Hi to Anna whose pasture I worked in last weekend!

[Moss]

I read your post and understand your quandry. You need to ask yourself if your dog is trained enough to take on such new challenges.

I have been to Scotland and done lambings on a big hill farm and work in the borders tagging and gathering and sorting, so I am familiar with what the work is that the dogs need to do in these instances.

Everything about the work there is different from what he is used to. You don't mention what kind of sheep are on this farm in Scotland. Are they Cheviots or Blackies? WHatever they are, I am sure they are not Herwicks and so would be very different. Depending on how much training he has under his belt, the difference in the reactions towards him of the sheep alone and then your handling of these different sheep might cause Moss concern.

 

Thanks Carol for your message - I have only just seen it.

 

I think your advice is excellent and it all makes sense to me. However, I think we may have crossed wires somewhere along the line. My dogs are used to working both herdwicks and scottish blackface. They have worked and had training on the hill in Scotland, as well as in fields in England. Moss, the lesser experienced dog, has had plenty of training, and really wants some work now just to straighten him out a bit. He is a very intelligent dog and I can almost see on the training field that he is thinking "but what is the point to all of this"! He is learning the foundations, but without the practical work built onto those foundations, he will never be able to do a day's work. When we move to Scotland, he definitely will not be thrown in at the deep end and expected to get on with it, but he will be given daily tasks - along with my other more experienced dog, and my boyfriend's trained dogs, so that he can start to understand the reason behind the training sessions.

 

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear in my original post.

 

Thanks again, and we will definitely be going over to see Bobby Dalziel at some point, to get another opinion on training methods and my dogs.

[Guest carol campion]

Thanks Carol for your message - I have only just seen it.

 

Moss, the lesser experienced dog, has had plenty of training, and really wants some work now just to straighten him out a bit. He is a very intelligent dog and I can almost see on the training field that he is thinking "but what is the point to all of this"! He is learning the foundations, but without the practical work built onto those foundations, he will never be able to do a day's work.

 

Thanks again, and we will definitely be going over to see Bobby Dalziel at some point, to get another opinion on training methods and my dogs.

 

So right you are! You need both.

 

Where in Scotland was that video of your dogs taking the sheep back to the hills taken? It looks like Lauder Hill.

 

Julie Simpson Hill would be worth visiting. She has set up a traiing center as well and is an excellent teacher. She is in Heriot not far from the borders.

 

Take care

 

Carol

[Moss]

So right you are! You need both.

 

Where in Scotland was that video of your dogs taking the sheep back to the hills taken? It looks like Lauder Hill.

 

Julie Simpson Hill would be worth visiting. She has set up a traiing center as well and is an excellent teacher. She is in Heriot not far from the borders.

 

Take care

 

Carol

 

I did contact Julie a while back regarding lessons, and may hopefully get booked on a clinic sometime this summer

 

The video was taken in the Lammermuir Hills between Longformacus and crossing the road to Cranshaws/Gifford.

 

Do you know the area well?

 

From one of the hills my boyfriend shepherds, you can see the farm that was Jock Richardson's, of course the home of the famous Wiston Cap

[Guest carol campion]

I did contact Julie a while back regarding lessons, and may hopefully get booked on a clinic sometime this summer

 

The video was taken in the Lammermuir Hills between Longformacus and crossing the road to Cranshaws/Gifford.

 

Do you know the area well?

 

From one of the hills my boyfriend shepherds, you can see the farm that was Jock Richardson's, of course the home of the famous Wiston Cap

 

Yes I know the area. I spent some time there last summer and will be back. A good friend named Chris Smart shepherds blackies in Longformacus at Horseupcleugh.

 

What is your boyfriend's name? I am sure Chris and he must know one another.

 

So the International last year was in his back yard!

 

Carol

[Moss]

Yes I know the area. I spent some time there last summer and will be back. A good friend named Chris Smart shepherds blackies in Longformacus at Horseupcleugh.

 

What is your boyfriend's name? I am sure Chris and he must know one another.

 

So the International last year was in his back yard!

 

Carol

 

Next time you are over, you will have to give me a shout and we could meet up

 

My boyfriend is Allan Taylor and he works at Mayshiel. He does know of Chris - I think he only lives around 3 miles away.

[Guest carol campion]

Next time you are over, you will have to give me a shout and we could meet up

 

My boyfriend is Allan Taylor and he works at Mayshiel. He does know of Chris - I think he only lives around 3 miles away.

 

 

Why not give me your e-mail address and I will contact you there.

 

Mine is carcampion@yahoo.com

[Moss]

Why not give me your e-mail address and I will contact you there.

 

Mine is carcampion@yahoo.com

 

OK kirsty.firth@btinternet.com

 

When is your next trip?

[Denise Wall]

Next time you are over, you will have to give me a shout and we could meet up

 

My boyfriend is Allan Taylor and he works at Mayshiel. He does know of Chris - I think he only lives around 3 miles away.

 

Wow! Small world. Chris Smart was the breeder of my old Rob, the sire of my Mick dog and grand sire of my Zeke:

 

http://www.stilhope.com/stilhopemain.htm

 

Scroll to the bottom to see Rob.

 

If you see Chris tell him Denise Wall said hi and that Mick is still hanging in there at nine though slowed down from nearly dying from Lepto last summer.

 

Good luck with your young dogs.