Cross on the outrun

[Pippin's person]

Hamish often crosses on his away outrun. I'm working on fixing it and have gotten good advice about that, but I'm curious what causes the dog to do it in the first place (if that's something that we mere humans can know). I don't think he's ever crossed on the come bye, though now that I think about it, he does sometimes overflank on the away as well.

 

Sorry if this has been dealt with before--I searched, but didn't find anything.

 

Thanks

Robin

[kelpiegirl]

No expert here. But, I will say, I always thought it was due to the dog having affected the sheep on the outrun, them turning their heads and said dog changing tack to keep on the heads? I don't know for sure. Lucy will sometimes over flank- she is SUCH a head hunter that she gets sucked into that. She is getting better though. Next time you send him notice what the sheep do right before he crosses. Sometimes too, on really long outruns, I think if the dog can't see the sheep, that he may cross because he is out there looking for them.

Wish they could speak!

Julie

 

Hamish often crosses on his away outrun. I'm working on fixing it and have gotten good advice about that, but I'm curious what causes the dog to do it in the first place (if that's something that we mere humans can know). I don't think he's ever crossed on the come bye, though now that I think about it, he does sometimes overflank on the away as well.

 

Sorry if this has been dealt with before--I searched, but didn't find anything.

 

Thanks

Robin

[Laurae]

Great question, Robin! I'm a total novice, but I know Taz only crosses if I've tried to extend his outrun too great a distance at once. So I always thought that first his trajectory is wrong, and rather than kicking further out to cover once he spots the sheep, as he should, he just keeps going to get them on the other side because his momentum makes it seem more efficient at that moment to cross over rather than change direction by the late time he notices that he's out of position. As he learns to feel his sheep more (and his outruns get wider because he checks in on the sheep while moving and so adjusts his course), he is crossing much less. The same thing was happening with his overflanking--it was a combination of his momentum carrying him too far past balance because he was too tight, and he was too tight because he wasn't checking in with his sheep while running and then adjusting his trajectory. Now that he is checking in and adjusting more, he is overflanking much less. It has been really cool to see! But, of course, I don't really know if this is correct--it's just what I've noticed with Taz.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Just not really feeling his sheep confidently on that side. I'd work on that flank a bit closer for a while, get him really confident. Sometimes we forget that a dog's "sides" can differ in strength when we stretch out the gather and just assume because it's right at that distance at one side, that the dog's "got it." Well, I make that mistake anyway.

[juliepoudrier]

As Becca says, dogs can be one-sided and this can affect the outrun. The dog can also sense/feel pressure or draws that we may not and so if you insist the dog run out to one side and the dog feels a lot of pressure to the other, it may cross to cover the pressure (for example, if you send left and there are sheep in a neighboring pasture to the right, the dog may sense/feel that the sheep he's going after will bolt to the right toward those neighboring sheep and so may cross in an attempt to block any escape routes). At longer distances, sometimes the dog hasn't seen its sheep and turns in and then when it sees the sheep, since it's already on a trajectory that will carry it in front of the sheep, just keeps going and then gets behind them from the other side (probably the most obvious reason for a cross over at trials with really long outruns and/or partially or totally blind outruns).

 

With young dogs crossing can happen for a variety of reasons, the main one being that the distance is too far for the dog's level of competence/confidence. Terrain can also have an effect. I'll tell two stories on myself, since I always try to listen my dog and send the way the dog indicates it would prefer to go (all other things being equal). At a new trial held Dec. 31/Jan 1 in KY, the field was quite rolling and the outrun was a good 500 yards long. Each time the dog went down into a swale (and there were several on the way), it lost sight of the sheep. The set out was a trailer that was parked to the right (handler's right) of and behind the set out post. I sent both dogs left the first day thinking that they might run deep enough to come to the set out--and hang up there--before seeing the sheep they were to pick up if I sent them right. Kat went down in one of the dips where I couldn't see her to redirect her and crossed. So the next day I figured I'd send her right, since she should remember where she got her sheep the previous day and had already indicated a preference to go right since she had crossed the day before. Once again she got down in one of those swales and started to cross. I suspected that's what was happening and blew a lie down whistle. Long story short--she crossed AGAIN. I have no real explanation other than that she's not a dog who will always consistently look for her sheep as she's running out, and in this case the terrain just got the better of her (she's a seasoned open dog, so I can't claim lack of experience!). Lark crossed in her first run at the Bluegrass at a outrun distance that she can do well at home. I had sent her left (which in retrospect is not her strong side--she prefers to go right--because I thought she'd better see the sheep the whole way out--that's what I get for thinking!) and the outrun to the right was uphill, which will pull a dog in. The result? A cross. Part of the problem was that she's not solid on her flanks, so although I stopped her three (!) times before she crossed, I never could get her to take a redirect and kick back out on the side I sent her. The next day I decided to send her to her "good" side, which also had less of a hill to run up and she went just fine.

 

So there can be numerous reasons *why* a dog crosses, some the handler's fault and some not. For a young dog who consistently crosses when sent to one side vs. the other, I would suspect one-sidedness as the main cause and shorten my outruns on that side to a distance at which the dog doesn't cross and then work back out from there. JMO.

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

Thanks everyone--Laura, what you describe with Taz seems similar to my perception of what Hamish is doing. We have shortened up the distance considerably when he runs left and have been able to stop him and get him to move out. Since he also overflanks on that side, I suspect he probably doesn't read his sheep well there for whatever reason. The trainer I work with has wondered if he's compensating for his eye (of which he has more than desirable for most situations) as well as feeling weaker on that side--kind of like the two things together just prove too much for him. he's not quite 2 yet and I've been doing this exactly as long as he has, so he has several hurdles to overcome in addition to the eye.

 

One of the things that prompted me to ask is that sometimes he crosses as he gets closer to the sheep, but sometimes he crosses at the start of his outrun, which suggests the one-sidedness--he also tends to run tighter on the left.

 

I started to think about it because we are entered in our first trial at the end of June and won't have a whole lot of opportunity to work before that, so I was trying to figure out if I could use my head to work on it rather than the head/body combo that occurs when actually out working together. You'd think after years of reading these boards, I understand that my head will generally get me into trouble...

 

In any event, I'll probably send him to his "good" side in the trial while we keep working on the weaker side during training sessions and hope for the best.

 

Robin

[Bill Fosher]

Hi Robin,

 

Since you say the dog has a strong eye, he's probably being pulled across by it, and as Becca and others have said he's simply not as confident on that bad side.

 

In addition to the normal stuff of shorting up his outrun until he is comfortable going to the right, I would also work on keeping him up and moving and don't ever let him stare at sheep or do other things that will strengthen his eye any more than it already is. Just try to keep him comfortable and free him up at any opportunity to do so.

[Lenajo]

inexperience...with the terrain, with the distance sent, with the level of pressure the sheep are exerting..

 

and above all and expensive entry fee and the presence of anyone who knows what your dog should not be doing....

[Bo Peep]

Some dogs prefer one way or the other. Also, if the sheep have been used before they might know where the return pen is or whatever it's called. So the dog might be heavier on that side. There's no rule that says you can't get to the post and put your dog on a down totally sideways- that way they have no choice on which way they are suposed to go- just a little hint I picked up from an old timer.