starting a dog, fetching and driving

[Liz P]

I have never started my own dog, in the past I have sent them off for training and get them back with flanks, walk up, etc. I want to do it myself this time. I have been reading books but have found the videos the most helpful because I can actually see what is happening. I was watching Derek Scrimgeour's video this week and I have a question I hope you guys can answer. He worked about 6 different dogs of various training stages. The first dog was just learning flanks so he had it doing tiny outruns. With the 2nd dog he was reinforcing flanks and the down. When the second dog came around the sheep and started to push them away from him instead of fetching, Derek gave a walk on command. He commented that he never fights a dog, that if it has the natural instinct to drive he uses that as a training opportunity. Every time I have seen a dog started the trainer has it fetching and emphasizes balancing the sheep to the handler. When should I start allowing the dog to drive? Derek's thoughts were that a dog should never be corrected early in training if it shows a desire to drive, but the first few sessions all you do is fetching.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think as long as you are clear what you are asking the dog to do, and are consistent in your expectations, then the order of things doesn't really matter. We had Rocky driving long before he was doing anything else, because he liked to do it - but he wasn't allowed to run the sheep - we worked on keeping him at a nice pace and stopping when asked. Then when he started to go to the heads naturally, he already had the concept of proper pace. Then we've been able to build on that feel for the sheep, so that he knows better now than to slice in on his flanks. It's a matter now of building up his experience working sides, correcting him when he's wrong and buildiing his distance - work my hubby needs to do yet (ahem) but you can definitely see where it's all heading.

 

It was best to do this with Rocky because he's super task-oriented. Get him in a round pen and start trying to force him around the sheep, and his head just goes into orbit. Put him on a flock of thirty ewes and their lambs and ask him to get them from Point A to Point B, and he goes, "Oh, ok, that kinda makes sense." Then it's just giving him more and more tools to do his job.

 

It's a little bit against the grain but the one thing I've learned in this, is that there's no one way to learn - or train.

[Moss]

It is a difficult one to give a definitive answer to.

 

At my initial lessons we dealt with the dog feeling his sheep and balancing them to the handler. Giving no commands, and just letting the dog run naturally. The dog is kept off the sheep though (by use of either a long line or a round pen) and not allowed to harass. This is built up over time, and then we introduce driving. I have found that driving is quite unnatural for a dog, so you don't come across many that do it off the cuff so to speak.

 

I think as has been said, what works for you may not work for another, so you have to be individual in your training techniques and employ whatever methods work for you.

 

Aled Owen recently brought out a new DVD "Time Well Spent" that I have found to be very useful.

[Lenajo]

Driving and fetching offer the same view to the dog, and the same opportunities for the dog to control the stock. From the very beginning if you concentrate on that, you build both "drive" and "fetch". Flanks fall in naturally from that, and an outrun really is nothing but a long flank where the dog is then allowed to approach the stock and bring them to the place he was sent from.

 

I've not seen Derek in person, but what you desribe sounds like what the guy I work with has been doing since the 70s. With the exception that he doesn't use a rope, and very rarely a round pen.

 

I worked Claire with him this weekend in a 30x30 square lot - it was about her 3rd lesson We blocked any charges, but otherwise got out of her way. If she walked straight in quietly we let her do it and stepped out of clear access to the sheep so she felt no pressure.. At the corners she slid in on her her own if kept towards the center and gave the sheep room to walk by. It was all very peaceful, and you could see her brain working about how "quiet and calm" equalled full access without human interference.

 

Major motto was to let the dog have the sheep, and only step in if she was wrong. No assumptions allowed - she had to decide how she was going to act before I was allowed to react. No hovering in front of the sheep or sticking the crook in her face.