Does anyone have Herdwicks

[Moss]

My partner has offered to buy me a small flock of my own sheep when I move to Scotland. He farms Scottish Blackface, which I do like, but my training sheep at our classes are Herdwicks, which I LOVE!

 

Does anyone else have Herdwicks and what are their pros and cons?

[blackacre]

Kirsty,

 

One of the folks on the UK Kelpie website trains on Herdwicks--or maybe owns some? I was asking about them since they look so unique. Apparently, they lose the brown colour when they get older. Hard to believe, but there it is.

Another nugget of information about them that I learned recently is that Beatrix Potter spent a great deal of time in her later years involved with the breed, which she either helped establish or at least preserve, I'm not sure which. Apparently, she was the head of the Herdwick society for many years.

 

A

[Moss]

Kirsty,

 

One of the folks on the UK Kelpie website trains on Herdwicks--or maybe owns some? I was asking about them since they look so unique. Apparently, they lose the brown colour when they get older. Hard to believe, but there it is.

Another nugget of information about them that I learned recently is that Beatrix Potter spent a great deal of time in her later years involved with the breed, which she either helped establish or at least preserve, I'm not sure which. Apparently, she was the head of the Herdwick society for many years.

 

A

 

Thanks for that A. I knew about the colouring - as I have trained on youngsters, and older ewes ... see pics (taken when Moss was around 5-6 months old).

 

I didn't know that about Beatrix Potter though, which is very bad of me, considering I was born and brought up in the Lake District! Thanks for the info - very interesting.

 

Older Herdwicks and Moss (pup)

 

 

 

 

Hoggs and Rip

 

 

[blackacre]

Ah, here we are:

 

UK Kelpie link

 

A

[Moss]

Ah, here we are:

 

UK Kelpie link

 

A

 

Thanks - I have registered with the forum, so will be able to read what they have to say about the breed.

 

Thanks a lot.

[blackacre]

Oh my. That is quite heartbreakingly beautiful: vista, drystone wall, sheep, dog, the lot.

Does your partner trial? Is he in Scotland now? I will be in the Orkney Islands late June and am looking for some trials to attend in northern Scotland. Maybe he'd know of some? So far I've found one in Lairg, June 30, but that's it.

A

[Moss]

Oh my. That is quite heartbreakingly beautiful: vista, drystone wall, sheep, dog, the lot.

Does your partner trial? Is he in Scotland now? I will be in the Orkney Islands late June and am looking for some trials to attend in northern Scotland. Maybe he'd know of some? So far I've found one in Lairg, June 30, but that's it.

A

 

Thanks - I do feel lucky living here, it is gorgeous. I shall miss it when I move to Scotland, but then of course Scotland has a wild beauty all of its own My partner hasn't trialled any of his dogs yet, but I am encouraging him to do so as he is very experienced and he has some really cracking dogs. He has always been interested in trialling and goes along to spectate and choose prospective stud dogs so think he just needs a bit of a nudge to have a go himself (That isn't my partner in the photos by the way, that is Moss's breeder and our trainer - Thomas Longton).

 

Yes, Allan does live in Scotland now - about 40 minutes drive from Edinburgh, out in the Lammermuir Hills.

 

I will have a look for some trials fo you to attend around Orkney etc in June ... there is bound to be some. How long are you staying for?

[blackacre]

Ah indeed, that is Thomas. I met him a few years ago when he was over here to judge Lyle Lad's trial but haven't seen him since. I believe he's one of the judges for the Bluegrass this year, so I guess I'll see him then.

Is that is place? Do you train with him?

I'll be in the Orkneys June 23 to July 1. My son is in the conducting course held in conjunction with the St. Magnus Festival, so I'll be attending that. However, it ends on June 27, so we'll have a few days to travel around.

Re Herdwicks, also found this:

Herdwick Society

A

[Guest pax]

These are the sheep in the PBS Nature video about dogs. I thiknk they are the most beautiful sheep I've ever seen, but we don't appear to have them in the U.S.

[Moss]

Ah indeed, that is Thomas. I met him a few years ago when he was over here to judge Lyle Lad's trial but haven't seen him since. I believe he's one of the judges for the Bluegrass this year, so I guess I'll see him then.

Is that is place? Do you train with him?

I'll be in the Orkneys June 23 to July 1. My son is in the conducting course held in conjunction with the St. Magnus Festival, so I'll be attending that. However, it ends on June 27, so we'll have a few days to travel around.

Re Herdwicks, also found this:

Herdwick Society

A

 

Yes that is Thomas's farm in the photos and I do train with him. He holds classes once a week on a Thursday evening and I also get some one to one time with him at weekends.

 

I will ask Allan to find out about trials up there around those dates, and it will also be worthwhile buying the Farmers Guardian newspaper and The Scottish Farmer paper while you are there, as they will have details of all the small, local trials which may not be advertised on the web.

 

Thanks for the herdwick info - plenty of food for thought :-)

[Eileen Stein]

I don't think there are any Herdwicks in the US. I too would love to have some, but I looked into it a while back, and could find none. A Cumbrian shepherd once told me that they would not do well outside the Lake District, but I think he was just being chauvinistic.

[Guest pax]

I don't think there are any Herdwicks in the US. I too would love to have some, but I looked into it a while back, and could find none. A Cumbrian shepherd once told me that they would not do well outside the Lake District, but I think he was just being chauvinistic.

 

 

 

I'm thinking there's only one way to find out.

 

And it's been four years since I've been back, and my ex father in law can't keep pickling himself forever, it might be as well to get the kids over there sooner rather than later.

 

They're just so...beautiful. They look like little fauns. (Oy. I really need my head examined.)

[Moss]

I don't think there are any Herdwicks in the US. I too would love to have some, but I looked into it a while back, and could find none. A Cumbrian shepherd once told me that they would not do well outside the Lake District, but I think he was just being chauvinistic.

 

What a shame you don't have any Herdys in the US Well we are outside the Lake District (just!) and they do really well here I will have to see how they get on in Scotland

[Moss]

I'm thinking there's only one way to find out.

 

And it's been four years since I've been back, and my ex father in law can't keep pickling himself forever, it might be as well to get the kids over there sooner rather than later.

 

They're just so...beautiful. They look like little fauns. (Oy. I really need my head examined.)

 

 

They are VERY cute aren't they ?!!

[Bill Fosher]

If I remember correctly, Scotland and England are actually two different land masses with different geology and different mineral contents to the soil. (Scotland broke off of New England and Nova Scotia, floated around and bumped into England, as I understand it.) Sheep can be very sensitive to these differences. Of course you also have elevation as the main consideration for where sheep will thrive in the UK. I assume that Herdwicks are not running on ground suited to blackies or Swaledales, so you'll need to remember the old adage that you shouldn't move sheep uphill. Scotland has plenty of low and mid-elevation ground in addition to the high stuff, so if you can match the climate and keep an eye on the mineral status, you might end up doing okay.

[Guest pax]

I'm in the foothills of the Blue Ridge. I'd say it's on a par, except for humidity. That might be a killer in the summer.

 

I've run into issues before importing stock, notably a really nice field hunter from Leicestershire whose feet fell apart within a year of coming to me, I know in my heart it was the change in the calcium levels of the grass and the water that did him in. (Takes a year +/- to grow a hoof, and I think it took him roughly the same to lose it.)

 

But I am getting way, WAY ahead of myself, considering my first sheep moved in last night.

 

The Six and a Bit are doing just fine.

 

Maybe if I can keep all these guys free of gross owner ignorance for a year I'll branch out.

 

But I am definetly keeping these little guys in the back of my mind.

 

What're they like to herd?

 

And if I go over to take the kids to see the ex Pa-in-law and the other grandkids, you know, if I just happened towards the Lake District, well that really isn't a surprise is it?

[juliepoudrier]

Celia,

I think the restrictions on importing sheep (I don't think it's possible is it, because of FMD?) would make it unlikely for you to be able to get Herdwicks here. I was excited to see someone from CA post on Sheep-L that they will have Wensleydales at the MD Sheep and Wool Festival and considering how I can keep myself from spending $$ I don't need to spend.... Actually it might be possible to import, but it would be very costly I would think, and you'd have to sign your life and sheep away to the government to do so.

J.

[Bill Fosher]

I think you can import semen from the UK under some very strict rules. But not live sheep, and I don't think you can even bring in embryos.

 

Pax -- remember what a huge story it was a couple of summers ago when London -- way down in the southern end of the island -- hit 90 degrees F? Scotland is much cooler than the mid-Atlantic US in the summer. Remember that Edinburgh is at the same latitude as Juno, Alaska. Your winters are probably comparable because of the moderating ocean currents off the coast of Great Britain.

[Guest pax]

Well, I thank you for explaining more about the import issues. I had no idea they were that tough with sheep.

 

I'm used to chucking horses around willy nilly between Europe and the US, I would never have thought sheep would be such a huge deal as it sounds.

 

Never mind. I'm sure the Six and a bit (one has a not quite week old lamb at heel) will keep me occupied for a little while.

 

Bill, I spent school holidays, etc, with my Grandmother in western Ireland, and then married a Brit and spent some time there as well. I've just never lived there full time, permanently. And I do remember that heat wave, because my sister-in-law rang to tell me it'd ruined their holiday. As I recall I was mucking out and it was around 99 degrees at the time and had been all week.

 

Well well. I'm doomed to Herdwick envy, I reckon, because no matter how beautiful I think they are I am not all that keen on living in England.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

If it's brown sheep you want, what about Tunis, which are highly adapted to this area? Or if it's the chocolate brown and grey colors you like, how about the Karakuls?

[Guest pax]

Those are good suggestions.

 

The truth is, I don't know why I like them, except I was struck by their gleaming white legs and faces and those little puffy cloud bodies coming down that hill in the video.

 

You know how sometimes you just see something and like it, for no good reason?

 

You know what astounds me? These guys, the Fat Tailed varieties. I have an equal and opposite reaction to them. They need to start jumping rope like my av.

 

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Yes, but many ethnic customers look at those and go, YUM! That's pretty darned weird though - why would someone dock tails on a fat tailed breed? I'm assuming that's not a natural dock . . .

[Moss]

If I remember correctly, Scotland and England are actually two different land masses with different geology and different mineral contents to the soil. (Scotland broke off of New England and Nova Scotia, floated around and bumped into England, as I understand it.) Sheep can be very sensitive to these differences. Of course you also have elevation as the main consideration for where sheep will thrive in the UK. I assume that Herdwicks are not running on ground suited to blackies or Swaledales, so you'll need to remember the old adage that you shouldn't move sheep uphill. Scotland has plenty of low and mid-elevation ground in addition to the high stuff, so if you can match the climate and keep an eye on the mineral status, you might end up doing okay.

 

Herdwicks in the Lakes live anything up to 3000 feet and so I reckon they will flourish like mushrooms in the Lammermuirs in Scotland. I hope anyway

[juliepoudrier]

I have docked and undocked karakuls. In that breed, the lower part of the tail is not fat (it's like a little rat tail compared to the rest of the tail and can be curved in a J shape) and so I dock at the junction between fat and skinny part. I have been told by a karakul breeder that *really fat* tails can make breeding difficult, even in this breed where the ram "knows" how to get around a fat tail, so that may be some of the reason behind docking. I've also been told that sores can develop under that fat tail, but I've never had that problem. But I suppose it could be another reason for docking. FWIW, I docked nothing (i.e., ram lambs) that I was planning to sell to the ethnic market. The ewes I'm keeping for breeding I docked at the bottom of the fat part of the tail (since it's expected for show, though I don't necessarily plan to show I might want to sell to someone who does).

 

As for the tunis breed, fatness of tail is quite variable, probably because of other breeds that were mixed in back when the breed was being "improved." Some of my tunis have tails that look like regular sheep tails and some have fatter tails, but *none* have tails as fat as the karakul tails (which are smaller than the tails pictured above). I dock all my tunis at the end of the caudal fold since there's no obvious demarcation like there is with the karakuls.

 

When I have time, I will post some karakul photos--the tails are definitely not nearly as extreme as those in the picture Celia posted. We need to remember that these breeds were developed in areas where forage was marginal and the tails are the way sheep stored fat for lean times, much like the camel's hump. People from the areas where fat-tailed breeds originated see those tails as perfectly normal and probably consider the smaller-tailed breeds we're more familiar with as odd as we consider the fat-tailed breeds....

 

Another breed that is available in the US that comes in brown and is poofy and cute is the Shetland. They have "duck" tails--naturally short tails that don't require docking.

 

J.