Introducing BC to Horses

[bexie]

Hi everyone. I tried doing searching, but I didn't find anything on this topic. Feel free to point me somewhere else.

 

 

I've got a 4 1/2 month old border collie pup that we'd like to train later to work cows. But we've also got 5 horses and we'd like to be able to have the pup along when out with the horses and riding without anything happening. But I've never done anything like this before and don't want to ruin her herding instinct.

 

 

The horses are a 20+ oldenborg (big European breed) mare that is fully trained and can work stock (hasn't in a while but knows how), untrained 4yr Quarter mare (planning to send her out to a trainer soon), untrained almost-2yr Paint mare, and a 5 yr old shetland mare that is probably expecting in one pasture and a shetland stallion in another.

 

 

Molly's recall is not great yet (we're working on it, have only had her a month). She is fine at home but when out it is sometimes hard to get her to come when she thinks something else is more exciting. Training for this is made more difficult by the fact that she couldn't care less about goodies on a walk. But that's a different issue.

 

 

So far what we do is take Molly along on a long leash when we feed. She comes into the barn and into the feed area and we tie her there. She can see and smell the horses and they can see and smell her, but there isn't any real contact. We've sometimes stopped to "talk" to the horses on walks and I've seen her going into that crouched down position watching them, so I think she is sometimes interested in herding on them.

 

 

So any suggestions for how and when to let Molly have horse contact? I've got to admit that I am starting to really miss riding but don't want to just shut her in alone for a couple hours while I go tack up and take a ride and by the time my boyfriend is home from work, we need to feed and make dinner and all that other stuff.

 

 

We've also probably got to keep her on a leash when off the property. The area around us is pretty touristy so no matter how well controlled she can become off a lead (she isn't yet), we probably can't go off on a ride or anything without her on-lead.

 

Thanks for any suggestions you can give me.

Sincerely,

Rebecca

[Guest pax]

Is there a good older dog around?

 

All my young dogs have gotten their manners from the older ones.

 

I hesitate to leave a long lead on a puppy in the barn. All they need to do is drag one errant stick down the aisle for all hell to break loose.

 

I've got half a dozen too many on my ride list this morning, I'll pop in again this afternoon after having thought about it a bit.

[bexie]

Is there a good older dog around?

 

I hesitate to leave a long lead on a puppy in the barn. All they need to do is drag one errant stick down the aisle for all hell to break loose.

 

Nope. No older dogs and only the two of us and our horses. It has been several years since my BF last had a dog (huskies) and he hasn't had a lot of dogs-and-horses at once.

 

We don't have a barn in the traditional way with boxes and an aisle. We have a shelter with feeding cribs to which we tie the horses for feeding time but otherwise they roam in and out as they please. Molly is only tied there when one of us is out feeding and there is no access to sticks ;-).

 

As far as we know, at least the oldenborg and the quarter are accustomed to horses. When I bought the Quarter, there was a shephard running around her feet and sometimes barking and she couldn't care less. Even when Molly has gotten a bit upset and tried to do some barking in the barn (the moving tie ropes startled her), there have been no problems. But there is a difference between puppy tied up on other side of a solid wall and puppy somewhere the horses can reach her and vice versa.

 

All my searching for BC and horses mostly just tells me never to use a BC to herd horses because a kick will kill them, but nothing much about putting them together and especially not how to put them together, teach the BC not to herd them, and keep the BC interested in herding stock once she is finally old enough.

 

(Forgive me if I use weird words once in a while. I'm American, but I usually only talk horse and dog in Danish these days.)

 

But thanks for the comments and I look forward to more suggestions.

[Sue R]

I've done a pretty lousy job dealing with this issue with my dogs but I'll give you my opinion for what it's worth (not much).

 

I've had some Border Collie and Aussie dogs that had no interest in horses, in spite of being raised around them and being good dogs on cattle. My Celt is absolutely determined to work the horses and I (in spite of good advice) have not managed to dissuade him, probably because he developed the habit without my dealing with it properly, and now I'm not being firm enough to "break" him of it. My youngster, whom I have done a better job with, is lukewarm about horses but enthused about "proper" livestock like cattle and sheep.

 

Teach your dog a "leave it" command. There have been some threads on that. That when, when Molly shows any interest in the horses, you can use the "leave it" command so she knows that she is not to "work" them. You have to be firm and consistent about this, particularly if she has a real interest in working.

 

Do this when she's young so that you avoid the problems I've experienced by not dealing with it well and letting my dog develop a bad habit. Fortunately, our horses totally ignore him and he doesn't get close, but dogs working horses can be a recipe for disaster for the dog (and the horse or rider if the dog gets tangled up with the horse when you are riding or lunging).

 

Best wishes!

[bexie]

Teach your dog a "leave it" command. There have been some threads on that. That when, when Molly shows any interest in the horses, you can use the "leave it" command so she knows that she is not to "work" them. You have to be firm and consistent about this, particularly if she has a real interest in working.

 

---

 

Thanks! We use "slip" (Danish word that translates to "let go") to get her to drop balls and I found that it also works to get her to leave a soccer ball alone, so I can probably expand that pretty easily.

 

Do I need to be alert for signs other than that almost crouching posture and staring?

 

My plan to start some of this when there are two of us out there. So one of us can concentrate on whatever we are doing with the horses and the other can concentrate on Molly, including taking her off to do something else if it gets to be too much.

 

 

I've also been thinking it might be a good idea to start with only one horse so she can get used to being around them without too much herding to tempt her. Like maybe a day we can go for a walk together, take one of the horses along on a lead. Mine is overdue on out-of-the-pasture work if I want to send her to a trainer this spring and is also very accustomed to a dog.

 

I guess I have some ideas but mostly I'm nervous. I love my dog and I love the horses. I don't want to "ruin" either of them. Even if Molly can never learn to work stock, she's got a home here as a companion and I can find other types of "work" for her, but getting her and the horses together is really an important thing.

 

If we ought to wait, we can do that too, but I just can't figure out whether this is one of those "start when they're little" or "wait til they're grown" things. Right now I know that I can safely and stress-free leave her alone in the kitchen (we haven't done any crating with her. She seems to settle in under the table when we leave) for at least half an hour. I can slowly work to build that up too so I can go out for a couple hours and not feel too guilty, but it just doesn't seem fair to leave her in here alone when I'm not working (I work home office and need to put in about 8 hours at the puter a day. I break it up with lots of short walks and play sessions) if it is possible to have her along.

[amc]

I wouldn't worry in any case that teaching Molly not to herd horses will somehow impair her ability to work other livestock. They easily can tell the difference once they are taught. I have a horse now, a 20 year old QH gelding who is very good with the dogs but would kick if any of the dogs chased or nipped him. The last pup I raised who is now nearly 2 years old started going out with me to feed at about 12 weeks old. First tied on the other side of the fence in view, then tied to me on a very short lead. I taught him to stay back when I opened the gate very early on, and once he could be off lead on the other side of the gate and I felt confident about his 'leave it', I started letting him come in the paddock to feed too. He showed more interest in the horse poop than in the horse himself, so at about 5 months I started taking him for rides, first on our property, then down the road and up in the hills. Not too much traffic worry out here, but if a vehicle did approach I always had to stop and call the pup over and watch him like a hawk because he was pretty clueless about cars for quite a while...still kind of is but he's great with horses!

 

Our first border collie would herd anything, and we had to desensitize her with sharp corrections and repeat that at intervals (we started late with her as we didn't have horses when she was young). I wouldn't call her super trustworthy but she could be called off. Her son (now 12) was my main cattle-working dog for years and he never saw a horse until he was about 2. All I had to do with him was a 'get out of that!' when he put the eye a horse for the first time, mount up and tell him where I was and work stock with him. He understood it perfectly.

 

It sounds like you have plently of time and opportunity to teach Molly what you expect. I like the idea of taking her for a walk with your QH; I think that will go a long way toward achieving your goals.

 

Good luck, and have fun!

[Sue R]

Amy - I'd like to thank you for your contribution to this. Your methods and ideas should be helpful when I raise another, and to work with the ones I have.

[painted_ponies]

I haven't done much about this either, but I'm interested to read what others have to say. I have two geldings, a 24 yr old clydie cross and an eight year old paint, both of whom are absolutely bomb-proof to dogs - around here, they have to be, since no one believes in fencing in their dogs. But Violet, my three year old BC, got her foot broken at her last home when she tried to herd their gelding. So I'm scared to try to do too much with the dogs and horses together.

 

She's got a great recall, and I can take her out where she can see the horses and she'll ignore them now - she used to crouch and stare, but I think just lots of walks around the fence line acting as though there were no horses anywhere near kind of got her accustomed to ignoring them. I haven't gotten brave enough to try walking them together yet, but that sounds like a good idea to me. Especially if your boyfriend could lead one critter and you another the first time. My DH is not so happy about being around the horses - they've only recently moved home from the boarding stable so I'm hoping he'll eventually get accustomed to them.

 

As for Faith, my six month old BC, no way would I even try it. I can't teach her not to chase the carpenter bees, so I'm not about to trust her around my horses!