The rake

[kelpiegirl]

Hi everyone

Does anyone know where the use of the rake (leaf) in training sheep dogs originated? What are your opinions on it?

Thanks

Julie

[Pipedream Farm]

Hi everyone

Does anyone know where the use of the rake (leaf) in training sheep dogs originated? What are your opinions on it?

Thanks

Julie

Someone probably needed to impress upon a young dog to stay out, off the sheep and thought an extension to their arm would be helpful (longer reach). They then looked around and found a leaf rake and thought it would work without hurting the dog.

 

It should work as well as a broom, pvc pipe with padding on the end, rattle paddle, long crook, buggy whip, long stick with rock filled milk jug or 2 L bottle, etc. It could be helpful with some dogs and could be wrong to use on other dogs; it would depend upon the dog.

 

Mark

[Shoofly]

I think Bob Vest is the one who started the whole rake thing a few years back. He was very, very popular as an AKC clinician and i believe even sold rakes at his clinics. I never went to one of his clinics but i did hear some odd things about them, maybe true, maybe not.

[Lenajo]

It's just a tool - and like any tool it must be weaned away from. The shear size and awkwardness of a rake is hard to phase out. It's also difficult to walk and move with.

 

The original idea was from Australian sheepdog trainer Greg Prince.

 

There are a lot of AKC clinicians that present more excuses and gimicks for purchase than actual training. I used to go some of them, but found I did better when I started just training the dog with proper basics.

[PSmitty]

Hi, all.

 

I'm unearthing this thread, in light of the discussion going on over in the photo section about rakes, sheep leg-holding, etc.

 

I'm curious about the rake issue. I take it most (all?) of the working folks here disagree with it's usefullness? Is that because you feel it's a crutch and takes the place of actually teaching the dog to stay off the stock? That it doesn't allow the dog to figure out for itself where it's supposed to be? That kind of stuff?

 

Do you think it ever has a place in training? Here's my only experience: my dog went with a group to a "herding fun day" at a local trainer's place. So, this group of tervs, GSD, Aussies, one Wheaten and my bc mutt, went to meet sheep for the *first time*. The trainer had a rake at the ready, in the pen. With all of the tervs, the Wheaten and a couple of the Aussies, she put the rake between the dog and sheep, to push them back. She had to be very forceful with a few of the tervs, as they were quite aggressive with the sheep. Now, wasn't she just protecting the sheep? Or was there a better way to make sure they didn't become lamb chops? A long line, maybe?

 

My point is, I can see a well bred border collie with all the right instincts not needing to be pushed around with a rake, but a wild terv's first time on sheep? Or the terrier, she was seriously gripping the sheep, immediately. What about then?

 

(As an aside, she held the rake for the first few seconds Jack was off lead in the pen. Once she saw he wasn't aggressive with the sheep, she put it down and didn't use it the rest of the time he was in there.)

 

Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

[PSmitty]

I just wanted to add, that I'm in no way passing judgement either way, I'm a total newbie, and just curious. If all goes as planned, I'm taking my dogs to a different trainer in June, and I have no idea if she uses a rake or not.

[Guest pax]

Well, you are not the only newbie wondering about this.

 

Are they special dog training "rakes" or are real rakes with tines being used?

 

I've seen a paddle type thing that rattles if you shake it, and I like that there's not much that anybody could get hurt on if it gets stampeded or otherwise accidentally caught up with it.

 

I'd worry about real rakes with tines catching eyes and ears or other tender spots on sheep, dogs, or me, cause I am klutz enough I can see myself tripping over the damned thing and then falling on top of it.

[Bill Fosher]

I expect that rakes, raddle paddles, etc., are best used in situations where the dog is more or less lacking in instinct and needs to be made right, as opposed to being allowed to feel the stock and learn what it means to be right. Very few Border collies would fall into this category. Probably a good number of Australian shepherds would. Other breeds I don't know much about.

 

The question is why would you mess around with a dog that "needed" a rake?

[Pipedream Farm]

I expect that rakes, raddle paddles, etc., are best used in situations where the dog is more or less lacking in instinct and needs to be made right, as opposed to being allowed to feel the stock and learn what it means to be right. Very few Border collies would fall into this category. Probably a good number of Australian shepherds would. Other breeds I don't know much about.

 

The question is why would you mess around with a dog that "needed" a rake?

 

Bill,

 

Some lines are naturally tight; how would you convey to a young-enthusiastic dog from these lines what is the right distance off the stock, especially if they don't respond to body pressure?

 

Mark

[PSmitty]

The question is why would you mess around with a dog that "needed" a rake?

 

I guess some trainers have the time? But your opinion is, Bill, it's just not worth the bother? A dog like that just doesn't have what it takes?

 

Celia-the rake that was used when we went, was a real rake. Plastic tines.

[kelpiegirl]

That would be quite broad sweeping in my opinion. Sometimes you have a dog who naturally stays well of stock, and when you need that same dog to come in close- they won't.

Julie

 

I guess some trainers have the time? But your opinion is, Bill, it's just not worth the bother? A dog like that just doesn't have what it takes?

 

Celia-the rake that was used when we went, was a real rake. Plastic tines.

[PSmitty]

Julie, that's not my opinion, at all. I was just trying to understand what Bill said about not messing with a dog who needed the rake...

 

I think people who are opposed to the rake just see it as unnecessay, when you can accomplish the same thing in other ways, by letting the dog figure it out. And, I was just wondering about the trainer we went to, who seemed to use it to protect the sheep. I think Bill is saying if you had a dog that you had to protect the sheep from, why would you want to mess with such a dog?

 

Maybe, I think.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Paula

I went to a clinic with a rake involved, and I do believe the clinician was trying to protect the sheep from my rabid Kelpie She just used it on every dog- rather like someone riding a horse with a favorite bat. I train without a rake, but I do use something like a fiberglass crook. Sometimes it extends your arm, so that your dog can stay off without you having to go through the sheep. There are many many many very good working Kelpies and BC's who as young'ns were a bit over the top and needed something besides their owner's position to push them out. If you are lucky enough to have a dog who covers very well, but doesn't push in, AND has the strength to turn recalitrant stock, then you are very fortunate indeed. My girl is finally getting it, but I believe it is more of a maturity thing that anything.

Julie

 

Julie, that's not my opinion, at all. I was just trying to understand what Bill said about not messing with a dog who needed the rake...

 

I think people who are opposed to the rake just see it as unnecessay, when you can accomplish the same thing in other ways, by letting the dog figure it out. And, I was just wondering about the trainer we went to, who seemed to use it to protect the sheep. I think Bill is saying if you had a dog that you had to protect the sheep from, why would you want to mess with such a dog?

 

Maybe, I think.

[PSmitty]

If you are lucky enough to have a dog who covers very well, but doesn't push in, AND has the strength to turn recalitrant stock, then you are very fortunate indeed.

 

Julie-no, I have no such dog. I don't even have a real border collie and he's only seen stock once. I'm just really interested, and trying to learn more. I hopefully have found a trainer willing to work with us (and my puppy, eventually), so we'll see how it goes.

 

Best of luck to you and your girlie!

[kelpiegirl]

Thanks. I so wish I could just walk out my door and work her. But, as my grandfather put it- "spit in one hand, and wish in the other, which one gets filled first?" c'est la vie- am still working to get my place... Looking at a place this week. Oh, WHY can't I just have the $500,000 laying around!!!

Here is a pic of her in her element

 

 

Julie-no, I have no such dog. I don't even have a real border collie and he's only seen stock once. I'm just really interested, and trying to learn more. I hopefully have found a trainer willing to work with us (and my puppy, eventually), so we'll see how it goes.

 

Best of luck to you and your girlie!

[PSmitty]

Oh, she's beautiful!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I dunno. I've been to an awful lot of clinics where the rake or other "pushing off" device was not used at all, and it seemed to work just fine for a wide variety of dogs. And I'm including one Aussie trainer, and one person who specializes in hard-hitting cattle dogs.

 

I'm in bed with the tail end of the flu, and I spent a morning looking at "herding" videos on YouTube. Maybe it's the fever, but they all looked so similiar - and so "off." I kept wincing as a moment was missed where just a step back out of the sheep would have given the dog a chance to have that "lightbulb moment." Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. I imagine how the dog must feel if it has any instinct.

 

I saw one of a young Border Collie. She responded to the constant sweeping aside with more and more frantic attacks on the sheep. The person filming titters nervously a few times, then after a few minutes of this says, "It all seems kind of chaotic, doesn't it? It's hard to tell what's right and what's wrong. I guess that's where the experts come in."

[juliepoudrier]

There are many many many very good working Kelpies and BC's who as young'ns were a bit over the top and needed something besides their owner's position to push them out. If you are lucky enough to have a dog who covers very well, but doesn't push in, AND has the strength to turn recalitrant stock, then you are very fortunate indeed.

 

Julie, this response isn't specifically in reply to you--it's more a response to the general thread, but it seemed to fit your quote above. As the owner of a wide running, square flanking dog who is rarely tight (but is good in tight spaces) and can move anything I see Bill's point more as asking why anyone would necessarily resort to using artificial means to push a young/immature/inexperienced dog off stock. (I suppose I should go back and ask if it's really necessary to *push* any dog off stock, or if what you really want to do is help it learn to read stock and then place/pace itself appropriately to handle the stock at hand--the two are quite different in my opinion.) I think he's saying that a dog with innate ability will get it without lots of artificial aids beyond pressure and release, generally through body and voice. Unless you (the general you) are very skilled, you risk making the dog too wide (my dog is naturally wide, but there are times when I'd pay to have her too tight!) and unwilling to come in on its sheep when needed when you use artificial means like a rake to push it off stock or "protect" the stock from the dog. I have two pups that are not naturally wide and careful with the sheep the way their mom is (she was trialing successfully at the age they are now, and they are barely started). They like to be bowling balls or dive in and grab or any of those things that a rake might make a useful guard against. BUT, I rarely even train with a stock stick, and never anything like a rake. The pups do understand a verbal correction and so when the diving, buzzing, etc., starts, I correct verbally (and that can be quite harsh) and then release the pressure and let them figure out what they need to do (that is, to loosely quote Jack Knox and others, I inform then when they are wrong and don't make them right but instead let them figure out what's right through trial and error). I don't use anything to place them in the right spot in relation to the sheep. They have to figure that out for themselves, which ultimately means that they are learning how to read and control stock *themselves* without me having to do it for them. If I feel they are harrassing the sheep and ignoring my corrections, I simply put them up and try again another time. So I think the point is really that when you do a lot of pushing out, standing between your dog and the stock, and that sort of thing, you are not allowing the dog to learn to read and react properly to stock. You are teaching it to react to you at best, or at worst teaching it that if it ever wants to "get to the stock" it's going to have to *beat* you. Using artificial aids may indeed give quicker results, but one needs to think carefully if those are the results one really wants or if it makes more sense to take time and let the dog really learn how to work the stock, in all its messiness. Sorry if this sounds like a lecture--I just wanted to give my philosophy on why I don't consider the use of things like rakes helpful in training a dog. Obviously different folks have different training styles, but I always think it's best to use the fewest artificial aids possible and instead teach the dog how to think.

 

JMO of course....

 

J.

[PSmitty]

Thanks, Julie. That was very helpful.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Julie

Point well taken- and I did learn that an the clinic I went to a couple of weekends ago. I was fighting my girl too much, and not letting her do her job. Once I got my eyes on the SHEEP and not the dog, things calmed down very fast. The thing that gets me is that she is natually much better with my trainer, whom she has deep respect for. I also don't have a good voice for vocal corrections- I can't make low gutteral sounds- I squeak when I try it Lucy is also rather immature, so I have learned to just take each day day by day. I will say the "tool" I use is mainly held in my hand, as sort of a crutch. Actually, lately, I have decided to go without it because, well, my arms are tired. I have never tried to protect the sheep with this tool- she has never been THAT bad

Julie

ps: when I come down to the get together, I want you all to be giving it to me- yelling, what ever you need to do to get me doing the right thing!!! I can be pretty dense when working sheep

 

Julie, this response isn't specifically in reply to you--it's more a response to the general thread, but it seemed to fit your quote above. As the owner of a wide running, square flanking dog who is rarely tight (but is good in tight spaces) and can move anything I see Bill's point more as asking why anyone would necessarily resort to using artificial means to push a young/immature/inexperienced dog off stock. (I suppose I should go back and ask if it's really necessary to *push* any dog off stock, or if what you really want to do is help it learn to read stock and then place/pace itself appropriately to handle the stock at hand--the two are quite different in my opinion.) I think he's saying that a dog with innate ability will get it without lots of artificial aids beyond pressure and release, generally through body and voice. Unless you (the general you) are very skilled, you risk making the dog too wide (my dog is naturally wide, but there are times when I'd pay to have her too tight!) and unwilling to come in on its sheep when needed when you use artificial means like a rake to push it off stock or "protect" the stock from the dog. I have two pups that are not naturally wide and careful with the sheep the way their mom is (she was trialing successfully at the age they are now, and they are barely started). They like to be bowling balls or dive in and grab or any of those things that a rake might make a useful guard against. BUT, I rarely even train with a stock stick, and never anything like a rake. The pups do understand a verbal correction and so when the diving, buzzing, etc., starts, I correct verbally (and that can be quite harsh) and then release the pressure and let them figure out what they need to do (that is, to loosely quote Jack Knox and others, I inform then when they are wrong and don't make them right but instead let them figure out what's right through trial and error). I don't use anything to place them in the right spot in relation to the sheep. They have to figure that out for themselves, which ultimately means that they are learning how to read and control stock *themselves* without me having to do it for them. If I feel they are harrassing the sheep and ignoring my corrections, I simply put them up and try again another time. So I think the point is really that when you do a lot of pushing out, standing between your dog and the stock, and that sort of thing, you are not allowing the dog to learn to read and react properly to stock. You are teaching it to react to you at best, or at worst teaching it that if it ever wants to "get to the stock" it's going to have to *beat* you. Using artificial aids may indeed give quicker results, but one needs to think carefully if those are the results one really wants or if it makes more sense to take time and let the dog really learn how to work the stock, in all its messiness. Sorry if this sounds like a lecture--I just wanted to give my philosophy on why I don't consider the use of things like rakes helpful in training a dog. Obviously different folks have different training styles, but I always think it's best to use the fewest artificial aids possible and instead teach the dog how to think.

 

JMO of course....

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

Edited to add:

Now that I think of it, this tool is used mostly when I stop the action, and I lean on it- or have to hike up a hill

Julie

 

Hi Julie

Point well taken- and I did learn that an the clinic I went to a couple of weekends ago. I was fighting my girl too much, and not letting her do her job. Once I got my eyes on the SHEEP and not the dog, things calmed down very fast. The thing that gets me is that she is natually much better with my trainer, whom she has deep respect for. I also don't have a good voice for vocal corrections- I can't make low gutteral sounds- I squeak when I try it Lucy is also rather immature, so I have learned to just take each day day by day. I will say the "tool" I use is mainly held in my hand, as sort of a crutch. Actually, lately, I have decided to go without it because, well, my arms are tired. I have never tried to protect the sheep with this tool- she has never been THAT bad

Julie

ps: when I come down to the get together, I want you all to be giving it to me- yelling, what ever you need to do to get me doing the right thing!!! I can be pretty dense when working sheep

[Bill Fosher]

Bill,

 

Some lines are naturally tight; how would you convey to a young-enthusiastic dog from these lines what is the right distance off the stock, especially if they don't respond to body pressure?

 

Mark

 

I could tell you, Mark, but then I'd have to kill you.

 

Seriously, I don't know how to answer that question without seeing the dog working, but I can't think of anything you can do with a rake (etc.) except try to "make" a dog right. If the dog doesn't respond to body pressure, I don't see why it would respond to pressure from a rake, noise maker, etc.

 

I guess my question is not how to help the dog learn proper distance, but what has happened that a rake is "necessary?" Is it just a short cut? In my experience it almost always is -- at least with Border collies. The better way is to go back to wherever the problem arises and fix it. Does the dog know how to take a correction? Is it being pushed too fast? I'd rather work on widening a dog out naturally -- even if it takes a couple of months -- than push it out of contact and have to deal with that the rest of its life.

 

Of course, there may be some who can use a rake with a degree of deftness that I can't picture that would somehow provide the desired results without any unintended consequences. There are lots of folks who are better than me at lots of things -- no reason this should be any different.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Does the dog know how to take a correction?

 

I've been trying and trying to think what's missing in this picture and you put it so succintly. Not with regard to the dog Mark's talking about, but all the rake and paddle-weilding trainers I've been looking at (ok, I'm having a moment - "wielding?" "weilding"?).

 

That's the difference. If the dog's not bending to me just because I'm asking for it, then we've got to go back a step. Usually I can find it when I walk into the ring with my dog - can I do it off leash? If not, there's some homework to do right there.

 

Again, this isn't directed at Mark, who is, um, lightyears ahead of me in training experience, but speaking generally on the rake-pushing issue. That's why I say "I" here.

 

Once the dog acknowleges your presence around the sheep, you can use corrections - mostly verbal - to play a game of "red light/green light" with your dog. "Red light" is your corrections, "Green light" is all the space you leave physically, to be correct in.

 

Wow. It's really hard to explain. Last year Jack put me in the ring and did this with me - not telling me what to do, but giving me little verbal corrections any time I was wrong - and of course I wanted to be where the sheep were and where he wasn't. That was the most eye-opening experience! I could feel, to some extent, what the dogs feel - it was like the right thing to do was practically pulling me in. And he never blocked me, checked me with a stick, pushed at me, or in fact got anywhere near me or the sheep.

 

Okay, I'm going to stop now because a) there really isn't any good way to translate this into words and I'm certainly not the one to do it, having only trained four or five dogs in my lifetime to a max of, let's see, Open Ranch level?

[Pippin's person]

I think you translated it pretty well--flu and all

 

thanks

[SoloRiver]

I have a dog who loves to work but does not have the greatest feel for his sheep (he shall go nameless but he is, cough, red) and tends to be too tight. I am no great shakes as a trainer but one thing I have learned is that trying to push him out -- with any sort of device, be it a paddle, driving whip (used to make noise -- not to strike the dog), a crook, or my body pressure -- is of little use and only makes him cut in closer. What works better for him is setting up situations where he REALLY has to be wider to do the job (can't get away with cutting corners) and hoping that he figures it out -- usually he does.

 

And so here is an example of a dog that most people would think needs more to be "made" right, but he responds better to methods that don't use doo-hickeys to push him out.

 

I don't really want my dog to be giving space to the sheep because he's being pushed out by something other than the sheep, otherwise what hope has he of getting it right when I am a hundred meters away from the sheep? Two hundred? What do I do then, train an ewe to wield the rake herself?

 

But like I said, I am FAR from being a great trainer (or probably even a mediocre one) so I'm totally open to debate about this.

 

One thing I will say about rakes specifically is that they tend to be a cultural marker in the sense that the trainers who tend to use them tend to train for venues other than practical stock work with Border Collies specifically, or ISDS-style trials. The rake people seem to mostly be AKC people and Aussie people. Another cultural marker of this group is that they will teach "go bye" as a flank command instead of "come bye" because they tend to use "come" as their recall command (while Border Collie people tend to use "that'll do, here").

 

I am not saying that these people are necessarily bad trainers, but that for the way my Border Collies work, and for the kind of work I want to do with my Border Collies, I personally prefer to go to trainers who work with Border Collies for practical stockwork, ISDS-style trials, or (ideally) both.