Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 I was wondering whether anyone had some tips on overflanking. Cord had a teeny problem going into lambing, which has turned into a big giant monster of a problem. And trying to use the stop to just get some work done, has made the stop a big giant monster problem too, now. What he's doing is zipping way out back and forth like he's working a thousand sheep, but it's usually only a few dozen ewes and their lambs at most. I've worked on his stop seperately, and the flanking seperately - smaller group in a smaller field, figure eights, walking, etc - and he settles down fine, but goes right back to the flanking when put back on the ewes and lambs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Hey Rebecca Have you tried doing fence work with him? He may just be overwhelmed with all the darting/shifting of the lambs- how ld is he? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 There are no fences where he goes into this mode. And I suspect he is wise to this. He's mature, but I think this may be his first lambing. He was sure flummoxed the first time he had to work a lamb here, but he caught on quickly and is quite good with them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 You probably need to work on his "take time/steady" or "there" rather than his stop. He thinks flipping back and forth is the way to work that group. Stopping him doesn't really show him what you want him to do to move the sheep. Slowing him down so he walks forward instead of flipping around shows him an alternative way to move the sheep that makes you happy with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 You mean I've oveerused the stop? Moi? Now there's a shocker. Someone needs to put a shock collar on ME and have it set to "bump" me anytime the words "lie down" come out of my mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 There's nothing wrong with using a down, as long as it's instructive/constructive and you aren't just avoiding a problem with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 aren't just avoiding a problem with it. Which would be 90% of my use of the down. And the problem I'm avoiding is not trusting my dog. Poor Cord - someone rescue him! Actually I went out and worked the culls (about a dozen sheep with no lambs involved) and got him to flip just a little, in the smaller space. That allowed me to put a bit more pressure on without spinning his brain out of control (Karen's idea). Then we took them out in the larger area and I penned them up with him, correcting him with a "settle, walk up" when he wanted to flip past balance. You were right, that helped a lot. It really helps when good behavior has good results - a job getting done easier. But it's hard to correct something when there's so much going on, when I'm moving the ewes and lambs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Hmm, maybe you could help him pen up the larger group. You walk out to the other side of the sheep with him, and you push one side and him push the other (pretned your a brace team ), to get them penned. He's only flipping because he thinks he needs to. If you cover one side and he covers the other, he won't feel like he needs to. And you won't be fighting him over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Novice disclaimer here - but... Great advice Robin! I was thinking the same thing. Two of my "control freak" girls tend to starting that over flanking stuff when A: they are working a larger or slower group than they are used to; or B: they have a feeling that the group wants to spread out or disburse, so they feel a need to constantly "tuck the corners in". Using "there" (and a "lie down" to push them back as a last resort when they move too quickly or resisted "there") seems to work to get them to understand that I want them to stay steady behind the group and not worry so much about the "edges". Becca- I tend to over use the “lie down” too – when in doubt yell “lie down” - to the point that my FHD Pod (First Herding Dog) often just tries to take matters into her own paws. She respects me, but I don’t think she’ll ever feel 100% confident that I know what the heck I’m doing when it comes to sheep. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Mercy, that's what poor Ben does. He just blithely ignores my demands for him to stop unless it makes a WHOLE LOT of sense. I've switched to just using "lie", which steadies him, then repeating it over and over until he grinds to a halt. Crude but it works here. And Ben will never accept that sometimes I really know better! Cord's definitely a control freak. It's handy when holding a tricky bunch for chores. He's the first dog I've had that can hold ewes and very young lambs right together for tagging and vacs and whatnot. And he won't stop until he's checked every inch of the neighborhood for loose sheep, if there's a group missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 Mercy, that's what poor Ben does. He just blithely ignores my demands for him to stop unless it makes a WHOLE LOT of sense. I've switched to just using "lie", which steadies him, then repeating it over and over until he grinds to a halt. Crude but it works here. And Ben will never accept that sometimes I really know better! LOL - Ben and Pod must be soul mates! I switched to "Lie...lie... lie... LIE!" with her too - in as low and "gutteral" tone as I can make - and it does work better, but she still second guesses everything, especially at a distance. However, I will say that close-up work, penning, moving ewes and youngsters is her forte, she loves any kind of control work where she can finess the sheep into where they need to go. She does not have a grip on command, but she has a knack for pushing and then giving, (just enough to let the pressure off and to give the sheep a chance to respond the way they need to). I think she can read my mind when it comes to that sort of work, so I rarely need to say much to her other than a steadying word. Cord's definitely a control freak. It's handy when holding a tricky bunch for chores. He's the first dog I've had that can hold ewes and very young lambs right together for tagging and vacs and whatnot. And he won't stop until he's checked every inch of the neighborhood for loose sheep, if there's a group missing. That's nice - I do like my "control freaks" for the practical stuff - may not be pretty sometimes, but it's effective. And you never have to worry that they'll just decide to quit and go home when the going gets tough. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted March 26, 2007 Report Share Posted March 26, 2007 HI Becca, Every dog that I've ever seen overflanking was working too close and trying to figure out how to control the heads of the lead sheep. Gotta get over here and keep that lead sheep going straight. Oops! Gotta get back to the stragglers. Oops! Gotta get back to the leader, etc. The answer probably lies in distance and pace. If you get your dog back far enough that the lead sheep is in his field of vision (and vice versa) without overflanking, the problem may resolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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