How do y'all teach "lie down"?

[painted_ponies]

A video in the hands of a complete neophyte is probably a dangerous thing. But I just got my first one - "Starting Your Border Collie on Cattle, Sheep, or Ducks."

 

The video recommends teaching only "that'll do" (recall) and "lie down" before starting on stock. The trainer in the video teaches both these commands on a long line, and for "lie down" steps on the line and applies gentle steady pressure until the dog lies down. Then one releases pressure and praises.

 

Maybe I should let Faith and Violet watch the video, cause they're just not getting the idea.

 

Faith, who's been in PetsMart obedience classes, knows "down." But we accomplish it from a sit, and I get her to do it by lowering the treat in my hand. My past experience in training "down" has involved some kind of visual signal to the dog, which I understand is not something I should use with a (hopeful) future working dog, since I don't want her looking at me and breaking her focus on the stock.

 

When I try the method on the tape, I just get a dog with her chin on the ground and her fanny in the air. So I tried "folding" her back legs underneath her and sliding her front legs forward. Then I wind up with a dog flopped over on her back or side who thinks I've lost my mind.

 

The recall's going great, but I think I'm doing something wrong trying to get the down. I could go back to the treat method, I suppose, and just fade the lure. But I'm betting y'all have a better method. Can anyone offer any suggestions, please?

[juliepoudrier]

Sally,

No help for you here, I'm sorry to say. I taught the pups what lie down means using treats. It seems to have translated onto stock work well enough--Pip will lie down or stop and stand when on balance and Phoebe will stop and stand, so I don't know that it's necessary to train it without treats when working off stock. I'd do what has worked for you in the past and then perhaps translate that to Derek's methods. I think the main point is that the dog understand what "lie down" means, not how you get there. And training a pup with treats, if that's what works best for you, won't make it harder to transfer those behaviors once on stock.

 

TBH, I haven't done much obedience work with either pup, though they do mostly know "sit" and "lie down." But they both do stop on stock when on balance (most of the time anyway), and that's the main criterion right now.

 

Hope that's some little help!

 

J.

[painted_ponies]

Thanks, julie. I'm being overly cautious, I guess, because my past experience has to do with trying to produce a dog who never takes her eyes off the handler, no matter what else is going on around her. Luckily, neither Faith nor Violet seem to find me all that fascinating , so I'm probably worrying for nothing.

 

Is that Derek Scrimgeour on the tape? I thought he looked familiar (I have the book, Talking Sheepdogs) but his name didn't appear on the package (and I didn't watch the credits).

 

That's exciting to think of little Phoebe and Pip already working sheep!

[juliepoudrier]

No, on the Derek Scrimgeour thing. My bad. I read what you wrote and then started thinking about Derek and just wrote his name without thinking. I don't know who is on the video you have--I've never seen it.

 

As for the whole "watching you" thing, I don't think training with treats automatically means that the dog will watch you to the exclusion of all else. ISTM that people actually spend time *training* the whole "watch me" thing, so you should be safe if you're just luring with treats and not training the dogs to watch you. And if you fade the treats pretty quickly, then it shouldn't be a big deal. Pip and Phoebe don't watch me excessively--in fact they're more inclined to completely ignore me when stock are in the picture.

 

And as for Pip and Phoebe "working" (having fun might be a better description), it's exciting all right--but not in the way you think! (That said, little brother Nick is showing shades of his mama--lots of good sense and good work at a young age. Too bad P & P didn't inherit those characteristics!)

 

J.

[Carson Crazies]

I too have taught my pup a "lie down" off of stock with treats. I've also taught him some other tricks and such with treats and I don't notice him particularly interested in looking at me on stock. Like Julie says, I think some of the staring at the face is brought on by intentionally teaching "watch me". That being said, to Nick at this point "lie down" on stock means stop and stand... usually. This weekend it was more like "eventually stop and stand".

[painted_ponies]

You know, this PetsMart class was my first exposure to the command "watch me." Which I haven't bothered with teaching. I explained to the instructor at the beginning that Faith and I might be using different command cues and/or skipping some exercises, and she was fine with that.

 

But back during my misspent youth, we never taught "watch me" as a separate command. We encouraged the dog to look us in the eye, and gave it lots of positive feedback for doing so, but we never really taught it. It just seemed to happen on its own as the dogs grew more enthusiastic for the exercises. Maybe they were just trying to make sure they didn't miss anything - we did watch for inattentive moments and do unexpected things to regain the dog's attention.

 

Anyway, I hope y'all are both right and once they see stock they won't be worried about looking at me. Thanks for the input.

 

BTW, I've noticed that some people use down to mean down and some use it to mean stand. Do y'all prefer your dogs to actually lie down or do you think it's better to have them stand?

[juliepoudrier]

Sally,

Different folks have different views on this. On my trained dogs, "lie down" means lie down, and "stand" means stand. I don't buy into the "let the dog interpret what I really mean by the lie down command--lie down, slow down, stand, whatever" school of thought. Then again, I'm a pretty laissez-faire handler so I'm generally not giving a lie down or stand command unless I really want (and think it's necessary) a lie down or a stand. If I want the dog to slow down or steady, I use a steady command. That said, if all I really want is for the dog to stop, then I'll take a stand when I say lie down and vice versa. Like I said, laissez-faire.

 

But that's for my trained dogs. When I ask a pup to lie down, I'm pretty much happy if they even swivel an ear to acknowledge me and take a hitch in their step when they're first starting. At the Jack Knox clinic back in January, Pip was actually lying down when asked, but then he started anticipating a lie down, which Jack did not want him to do, so he quit asking for it and started mixing things up a bit. (In this case we were in a round pen, and as Pip scooped the sheep off the fence and started fetching them to Jack, Jack would ask for a lie down--really just wanted acknowledgment of the command or any sort of stop--but then Pip got to the point were he would start to fetch the sheep and then lie down in anticipation of being asked to, which we didn't want him doing--so many subtleties to deal with....).

 

So I expect in general for my trained dogs to obey whatever command I give, and I expect the pups to at least acknowledge that I am in the same sphere as them and am involved in the working process with them--and eventually come to some sort of stop.

 

P.S. I'm not really sure about the whole "watch me" thing. But then I don't really do very much obedience training--that is, I don't drill it much once they've got the concept, and maybe that's why they don't watch me closely. And I don't do any target training or whatever it's called. Plus I just don't use a lot of treats, so they aren't expecting goodies from me all the time, hence no need to watch me so closely? I don't really know the answer, but I suspect that if you start thinking Faith is watching you too much, you'll switch techniques to something that encourages watching less....

 

J.

[Dixie_Girl]

Sally, Jackson was taught lie down just that way, stepping on his lead. He picked it up in probly 3 times. Skip, OTOH, did an imatation of a floppy fish! I ignored it, and stayed my ground. Soon, he found if he just went down, I released presure and it was good. I ask for a lie down, I want them down. If I am working Jackson on sheep and need him to stand, I have taught him the command "there". Which in actuality, means a different command is coming, listen up! But, it makes him stop to see what is next, so that works for me. I don't treat train so can't help you on that, but it sounds like from what Laura said, it shouldn't be a prob. The thing is that once you ask for something, SOMEHOW you have to get the dog to do it. Other wise they think they can always get by with not doing it!

[painted_ponies]

Thanks y'all. I just thought some people preferred the dog to stand rather than to lie down and were just continuing to use the "lie down" command when they meant "stand." But I agree it would seem more useful to have both commands on a dog. So that's what I'll do.

 

I think I will just continue with the treat method till I get the command firmly fixed in their little minds, and then fade the lure.

[stockdogranch]

I do the stand on the leash thing, too. As soon as the dog downs, release some of the pressure. When the dog starts to get up, repeat the "lie down" command, and pull up on the lead--pulling the dog down. For most BCs, this takes a few minutes to learn. Pretty soon, all you have to do is kind of stomp your foot in their general direction if they don't take it right away. Works great. That way, you're not down at their level (like giving treats or whatever), and they are listening to your verbal command, which, with stock, you need, rather than looking at your or your hands or whatever.

Anna

[Patty Abel]

I would continue to train the pup with the method you feel comfortable with. Believe me, when they see sheep, they will forget the need for treat reinforcement! We did all the puppy classes and had a Canine Good Citizen award and then we went for our first herding lesson with a pocket full of nuked hotdog pieces. What a culture shock. He could have cared less about what was in my pocket or in my jacket for that matter, lol.

Your pup looks young in the picture. I would say let the down sink in at close range, then take it outside on a long leash so you can make sure it happens. My pup seemed to get the down at a distance really quick. I used a hand and verbal but no treats by that time. You probably know from your puppy class that you have to have 100's of successful reps before you can expect the dog to perform with distractions. Sheep are the ultimate distraction.

I will tell you that my biggest problem with training for herding/stockwork is having a dog that cannot yet control the impulse to go for the sheep until I tell him. There's where I think the puppy class "watch me" and "with me" come in handy.

[juliepoudrier]

I would continue to train the pup with the method you feel comfortable with.

I think applying Patty's comment above should be de rigeur in dog training. I personally don't like the "step on the leash" method because I think it's possible to injure a resisting youngster, and yet the method works just fine for others, as evidenced by the comments in this thread. But if you stick with doing what you're comfortable with, you're not likely to have regrets later--and this applies when choosing a trainer, training on stock, etc. If you (the general you) aren't keen on a method, then it's less likely to work for you anyway, so best to use methods that you can apply easily/comfortably and consistently. JMO.

 

J.

[Carson Crazies]

I would continue to train the pup with the method you feel comfortable with.

 

Totally agree here! There are some methods that I'm just not comfortable with, and even when I try to do them I wind up bumbling around. Then again, when I try new methods usually I wind up bumbling around anyway, at least initially. I've found, though, that if I'm uncomfortable (philisophically, anyway) with something, my dog picks that up pretty quickly.

 

If you do decide to teach some basics using treats, what I typically do is only use treats *just* long enough for them to get the picture. It all flew out the window first time Nick was on sheep anyway. Initially I was satisfied with just the merest reaction to my lie down. Now he'll stop, standing, and I suspect as we go along I'll get a solid down on him. I'm not all that terribly worried about it at the moment though. Like Julie with my older dog I expect a "lie down" when I say it, but TBH I'm not always as consistent as I should be (I need to actually put a *stand* on her). Some people do use lie down to mean stand. Some people use "lie down" to mean "check up", "pay attention", "stop", and lie down. I have too many things to keep up with at this point (like staying on my feet) that I can't do that yet.

[painted_ponies]

Oh, I agree completely. There's something I'm just not getting about the step-on-the-leash method, and consequently my dogs don't have clue one what I'm asking for. But last night with treats I had Violet connecting the command with the desired response in just a few tries.

 

I'll also be very happy if the girls even remember I'm on the same planet the first time they see sheep. LOL, Laura, I bet I'll be disappearing at regular intervals under a cloud of dust and woolies. Good thing my mischievous little paint horse has helped me conquer my fear of being run over by hoofed mammals - through habituation, unfortunately.

 

Anyway, I reckon it'll be a few more months till I find out, since Faith has just turned six months old.

[Carson Crazies]

LOL, Laura, I bet I'll be disappearing at regular intervals under a cloud of dust and woolies. Good thing my mischievous little paint horse has helped me conquer my fear of being run over by hoofed mammals - through habituation, unfortunately.

 

I do believe it will take quite a bit of practice if you want to overtake me as the "Queen of Face Plant".

[painted_ponies]

I do believe it will take quite a bit of practice if you want to overtake me as the "Queen of Face Plant".

 

I bet there are some interesting stories to go along with your title. Care to share? Please?

[Diana A]

I've used both methods with my dogs at various times - using treats and also just using the leash. I use the treats for the very young pups (under four months). I do the down from a standing position, because realistically a down on stock will always be from a stand and not from a sitting position. It also lets me more quickly move on to a down while moving.

 

To use the treats, I cup my hand over or around the treat and they can't get to it until the butt hits the ground. Sometimes I sit on the ground and prop one knee up in a V and put my hand with the treat under my leg, so the pup is encouraged to crawl under my leg and that will automatically put him into a down. I have a couple dogs where that's all they ever needed, although these were both dogs who started later on stock so they had a pretty long history of responding to a down command in situations where there was nothing nearly as distracting as stock around.

 

For using the leash, I found this helpful with somewhat older dogs who needed the down reinforced a bit. The key is first don't pull the dog down, but just use downward pressure, then the key part is to release pressure at first as soon as they make a move in the right direction. If you wait until you get the whole thing, they often get frustrated and just start fighting. If you have steady pressure and the dog even drops his head a bit, release pressure for just a second, or at least reduce pressure to about a third of what you're using, then reapply. The dog is likely to repeat what worked the first time and lower his head again. After a couple of times, don't release pressure as much, but if he drops farther than the last time release it all the way for a second again. If the butt is staying up consistently, gently put your hand on the dog's hind legs at the joint between his butt and his hocks (where he needs to bend in to go down). Eventually the dog's whole body will drop and then you can completely release pressure, let the dog up, and move to another place and give the dog a bit of a break. It sounds like it would be long and drawn out, but in reality I've done this with a dog who was initially resisting and started getting consistent immediate drops in about five minutes time. The key is in the timing and letting the dog know when he's on the right track so he keeps trying until he figures it out. If they've learned with treats already they should get the idea pretty quickly - you may not even need this step at all, although it helps with dogs who are of the mentality to only take the command if they happen to want a treat at the moment. An alternative variation I've seen on this is you just jerk the dog all the way down so fast that he's too surprised to resist you. I've seen that method work quite well, but I always worry I would hurt the dog doing it that way and I've been happy with my results the other way.

 

And then after all is said and done, the first time you get out on sheep and give a down command, chances are the pup will act as if he's never heard the word before anyway. The biggest help I've found there is once I ask I just keep blocking his access to stock until he at least gives me a stop, and then once his brain is thinking enough to give me that I can usually start getting a down pretty quickly. He has to give me a down before he gets to go back to work again - they catch on to that really fast.

 

Regarding your comments on attention work - you may not have been using a formal 'watch me' command, but if you're rewarding focused attention on you and doing something to get attention back on you when the dog looks away, then you ARE teaching a watch even if you aren't putting a word to it. Doing it without a word can actually be more harmful than teaching it as a command, because then the dog learns it as a default behavior and something to do even when you haven't asked for it. Luckily dogs are situational learners and if you've only encouraged/rewarded him for watching you in dog class or in training in your house or front yard, chances are it won't translate over into him watching you when there are sheep around. Provided that he does see sheep at a fairly young age - no guarantees if you keep working on attention for five years before he sees his first sheep!

 

Diana