how to start a dog on stock?

[donna frankland (uk)]

hi all!

 

the time is fast approaching when i will be able physically and mentally to start doing some serious training with brighid!

i feel alot stronger in myself and able to start a new challenge and brighid seems to have really settled down this past month or so, her recall is damn good 100% at the moment (though i will not be placing any bets as to how long this will last as she is still only a young un!). she really seems to be listening well now and seems very keen to be learning. i should have been doing alot more stuff with her already, but as you know i had a rough time of it a few months back, and not alot i can do about then, just do what i can now! (hope that made sense!).

a friend of mine has sheep, and has (i think) some dry ewes and some of last years wethers.

would it be a good idea to ask her if i can introduce brighid to stock (on a longline just in case), or should i leave well alone till october when hopefully i will be getting some proffesional training for the pair of us from a scheme run by the wool marketing board?

if it would be a good idea to try now and my friend agrees, how do i go about it? what do i do?

any help/advice/warnings will be gratefully received!

[Jordi44]

First, let me suggest you repost this on the training site on here - you'll probably get more answers, but I'll give you my 2 cents - which is probably more than it's worth.

 

How old is Brighid? I would wait until around 6 months or older to make a serious start, but either way, you can see how she reacts. It might even be to your benefit to see if she has any drive or interest even before the professional sessions.

 

Starting on a longline is a good idea - I wouldn't count on a recall with a young, excited dog that's seeing sheep for the first time.

Try this site: http://www.working-border-collie.com/article4.html

It has some good info and is by the Fogt - author of Lessons from a Stockdog (good book). That'd give you some ideas as to where to start anyhow.

 

If these sheep aren't used to dogs, start slow - some sheep will take off like a shot, others stand and stare, and still a few others will try to charge/attack the dog. Definitely make sure there isn't a ram in the bunch. You might want to just take her in around the sheep on a long line to see how they all react to each other before you try anything braver. If your friend is up for it, I'd say it's worth at least letting her see sheep - no harm as long as you don't just let her go crazy and totally ignore you. One time of little control shouldn't do lasting harm - I wouldn't think. I've seen tapes where "professionals" take a young dog to stock for the first time, and it's not much more than letting the dog circle them - but then, I'm not a trainer - just a wish I was.

[Joe Anne]

When I started Phoenix's training this April (at 19 mos. old), his very 1st time ever seeing sheep, the trainer took him in the corral with 3 sheep and kept him on a long line. No commands were used, just basically seeing if he had ANY interest at all. They only kept him with the sheep for about 5-10 min. max.

I was told that it is important to have your new dog start on sheep that were used to dogs. If the sheep are not used to the dog and charge them or whatever sheep do, it could be a pretty big negative experience for a dog just meeting sheep for the first time and may hinder their future training.

I don't know if I am making sense and I am new at the sheepherding training as well, we have only attended 1 3-day clinic, so I am learning ALOT... but, anyway, ...

have fun and good luck.

[Dixie_Girl]

Donna, I am so glad you are doing better! I knew you would! How old is Brighid? I would not take a dog for the first time with sheep that were not dog broke. It takes a strong dog to get sheep in shape and when I say strong, I mean in training. If any of the sheep challange her and she backs down it will be devastating for her. It will make it hard for her to have confidence again. I know it is hard to wait! Believe me! But it might be best in the long run. If the sheep are used to dogs working them then that is another matter. You can let her circle the sheep which she will most likely do instinctively. Keep the long lead on at all times! Let her circle one direction, then get her to go the other way. If all goes well, you can start working on getting her to change direction without you stopping her. You can do this by using your body and arm to stop the direction she is going. Then you can work on a lie down when she is calm and has been circling for a bit. I would not do anything more till you get profesional help. (which I am NOT!) I am really only letting you know what Jackson did his first few times on sheep. Remember, this is only if the sheep are dog broke!

 

Good luck! Let us know if you get to put her on some dog broke sheep!

[donna frankland (uk)]

hi all!

brighid is just over a year old. the sheep are used to being worked by a dog, but they dont always group for a dog, sometimes they scatter in all directions. there are a group of people-tame older girlies amongst them who would follow a bucket of sugar beet all day, i dont know if i could 'use' that. i think perhaps safest will be to wait! i dont want to ruin it before i even start!

she has seen sheep once after a slip up on my behalf and she took off after a small group, when they stopped running (a few old tame ewes in a small paddock) she stopped and i took her away instantly. i never said a word to her, other than the initial calling for her, neither scolding or praise just simply got her and removed her. i hope that was the correct thing to do! she was about 5 months at the time, and i have been carefull not to let her get near sheep since. we have sometines walked past sheep on the other side of a hedge and fence and she has taken no notice.

[Jordi44]

I would think it was ok - since you didn't scold her. At that age, they usually aren't going to come - one or two tries is ok, but after that - you just have to run them down.

 

The group of ewes that follow the bucket sound like your best bet if you do decide to try it. Going to the smallest fenced in area (something smaller than a huge pasture, but still big enough to work in) will make it easier to control the situation. Sometimes, it can help the dog's confidence to think the sheep are moving for it - even if they are just following you. At least it's easier to control everything if the sheep and dog aren't all freaking at the same time. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[donna frankland (uk)]

thanks jordi44!

to be honest i didnt even give her a 2nd chance to come as she wasnt supposed to be anywhere near the sheep in the 1st place, we were out on a walk, scary!

fortunately the sheep belonged to my sisters neighbor and he was very understanding and i was profusely apologetic! it could have been a whole different story!

what would you say would be the ideal sort of size to start? my friend has several big fields (7-10 acres) a small acre ish paddock and some small orchards. i'm guessing the orchards arent ideal as there are (obviously) lots of trees! the acre paddock is right next to the yards and on a slope.

failing that i could section off an appropriate sized piece from one of the larger fields.

i suppose the 1st thing to do though, would be to ask my friend if its ok to use her sheep and land!

i'm sure it will be ok, she let me when i was letting tikki learn a bit!

[Jordi44]

I would go with the smaller lot, but I'm no expert - in fact, Blaze and I are a case of blind leading blind - just what I've been told by others and have read. I would try maybe 5 or 6 gentle, calm as possible sheep to start with - enough that even if they get broken apart some, they aren't alone. The big thing is to try to keep some control over the situation. She'll probably (hopefully) just want to circle them. That's good. If you can keep the sheep in the center - out of corners and off fences, that helps. Might even think of giving the sheep some food to keep them happy while she "does her thing" circling around them.

 

I hear you about those unexpected sheep experiences. Years ago, I was at Louisville, KY for a big, national livestock show. They were showing Rambouillet sheep - very slow, pathetic judge. We had shown our yearling ram and were actually watching the show, hoping they'd get to our ewes before the next day (slowness of judge more than numbers). We saw a young BC wandering loose in the barn - when suddenly, he passed the ring and his head came up. He had a look of pure heavenly bliss - then dove into the ring. Well, long story short, he finally had 2 or 3 young rams broken loose from the people showing them, bound and determined to "herd" them. Finally, someone made a flying dive and landed on him. He was placed in an empty pen outside the ring, and quietly disappeared - owner claimed him, I'm sure without anyone knowing whose dog it was. We're still laughing about that - and it was probably 15 years ago. Good Luck