hastyreply Posted May 22, 2005 Report Share Posted May 22, 2005 I had a litter of triplets, 2 ram and 1 ewe lambs. The 2 little ram lamb have significantly different testicular size. One has quite large testicles-3-4 inches. While the other has very small ones-like hazel nuts. I just thought this was odd/interesting. Any ideas why they would be so different? The large one was the first born and small and the other was born 2 hours later followed directly by the ewe. I don't know if that has something to do with it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted May 22, 2005 Report Share Posted May 22, 2005 Is it the one born right before the ewe that has the underdeveloped testicles? The ewe lamb's hormones could have affected the development of the ram lamb. I've heard this happening, can't remember where - dogs maybe? Or maybe it WAS sheep. Anyway, I'm not sure whether it's a permanent problem or whether he will catch up. What a school science project that would be, huh? :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 I'm trying to picture a newborn lamb with four-inch testicles ... or did you mean three quarters of an inch? In my experience, even hazelnut sized stones would be fairly large on a newborn. Usually it's more like peanuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hastyreply Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 These are 6 weeks old now and the one has larger, 4inch long testes. The other's are still the same size they were at birth. I know that with cattle the way their placenta's are you can have "cross hormonal contamination" between different sexed calves. Usually it's the female who will have an incomplete reproduction tract due to the heavy influence of testosterone from the male twin. I don't remember this being the same with sheep but must admitt it's been 30 years and I didn't much pay attention to the sheep stuff back then. Someone said it might be breed related. These are something of a mismash of breeds. One of the sires is half suffolk and half katadin(maybe a cross), the other ram is by the same katadin(cross?) out of a texel cross ewe. Just thought it was interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 I don't remember this being the same with sheep but must admitt it's been 30 years and I didn't much pay attention to the sheep stuff back then. >> You can have freemartins in sheep too. I never heard of it going the opposite way (males affected in utero by female hormones), but maybe that happens too. > That was my first thought too, and I think it's the most likely. I've had Dorset-Barbado crosses where the Barbado-ish looking lambs had those tiny barb testicles that are a real challenge to band even after 7-10 days, and the Dorset-ish looking lambs had normal sized testicles. Not quite as drastic a difference as you're describing, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 The default for mammal embryos is the female phenotype (which is why men have nipples). It takes a good shot of male hormones for the boys to become boys, but no such comparable surge of hormones is necessary to make girls. So, I believe only females can be affected in utero by neighboring males, not vice versa. I know this phenomenon is documented in rats, and perhaps dogs (the relevant book I have is packed away at the moment). Androgenization in utero may have something to do with dominance aggression in bitches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordi44 Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Can you actually feel the testicles - or are you just looking at the scrotum? Could it be a cryptorchid (undescended testicles) and the scrotum just isn't growing? Can't remember if the scrotum grows with those or not - guess I haven't had that many (if any) in lambs and never paid any attention on other animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Still trying to picture four inch long testicles on a six-week old ram lamb. That would be the abnormal thing to me, not the smaller one; some full-grown rams' stones aren't a whole lot bigger than that. I'd expect a six week old ram lamb's entire scrotum to be *maybe* four inches long if it was hot out. The testicles themselves would be maybe the size of small grapes. Testicle size varies a lot in rams, and it's generally accepted that bigger is better. Scrotal circumference is positively correlated to sperm count, for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Melanie wrote: The default for mammal embryos is the female phenotype (which is why men have nipples). And here I thought it was so that men would have the option of having nipple rings, too. I guess I have been living in the happy valley too long. There was a man in a skirt in the supermarket last night and I didn't even notice until Lynn pointed him out to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hastyreply Posted May 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Well it is in the upper 90's here so it's hot out. I am only going by what I can observe when I'm watching them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 The heat is one thing that will make those testicles hang as low as possible. Our last ram threw some lambs that were WELL endowed. We also had a ewe that had ram lambs that consistently ran that way too. I wish now I'd kept one of those, for sure. She was a nice ewe but I lost her last year without keeping anything out of her. Her ram lambs (all she ever had) were so nice I always sold them as breeding stock. Hmm, I guess I was remembering the freemartin thing backwards. That doesn't surprise me a bit. I'm always reversing things. Good thing I'm not a guy - Bill would see ME at the store in a skirt, next! Try growing up in SFO to get de-sensitized to that sort of thing. One time we were getting a bite to eat at halftime at a basketball game (our high school's gym was on Haight Street). As we walked down the hill on the sidewalk back towards the stadium, a guy ran past us in the street wearing an American flag tied around his neck as a cape - and nothing else. He was carrying a sign that said something but we didn't see it. Um, he was running too fast - yeah, he was definitely running to fast to notice anything at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 Ah. A four inch long scrotum in 90 degree weather is a much easier to picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hastyreply Posted May 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 Ok, got someone to help me catch the little rascal. (I have an injured shoulder so can't grab lambs to easily). So on closer examination, he appears to have normal size testes, but his scrotum is full of fluid. Like a hydrocoel in people. It's not closed off from the abdominal wall like most scrotums. I didn't band him because I thought it might be to dangerous. ANY suggestions? He's not worth taking to the vet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted May 27, 2005 Report Share Posted May 27, 2005 Let him grow up and eat him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hastyreply Posted May 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2005 I'm not having much luck selling his daddy and uncle for eating. Noone around here that I can find eats mutton/lamb. I certainly don't. I barely eat beef. I had someone stop and ask about them about 6 months ago but I didn't get their name. But I figured I'd just leave him be and cull him later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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