havenjm Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 How feasible do you think it would be to organize sheepdog demonstrations or trials that mirror AKC events? The point being to juxtapose real working border collies and AKC border collies to highlight the differences in working ability between the two. And educate patrons about why those differences are there, and what conformation breeding does to the BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 Do you mean trials with the same layout and tasks that AKC trials have, or "real" trials that are held close in time and place to AKC trials? Or both? I wish something like this could be done, but I tend to doubt you'd reach many people this way. I don't know how many people other than competitors go to AKC herding trials, but I suspect it's even fewer than go to sheepdog and cattledog trials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 I don't think many spectators go to AKC herding trials. The other thing is that most of the people at AKC trials have breeds other than Border Collies (or "Border Collies") and they could care less what real Border Collies can do. Another thing is that AKC trials have all sorts of official and unofficial rules about the venue that would make it difficult to run any event nearby. For example, all fields used must be fenced all the way around -- it was explained to me that this is why the B course, which is based on the ISDS-style course, rarely has an outrun longer than 100 yards and normally has one much much much much shorter than that, even at the "higher" levels. It's also impossible to get people to sign up for a trial where you only offer a B course (because pretty much only Border Collies can do a B course, even a teeny tiny one, as other breeds generally lack real outruns) and so the place you hold the trial has to also have a pen set up for the A course (which is 100 x 200 feet at the largest, I believe, with a bunch of panels and chutes in it). Another thing is that sports/AKC people tend to think that of course, their dogs could do what our dogs do, if they put in the time and training (but they have all these other important sports, so who has the time, plus, sheep are so dirty and nasty). Since they rarely test this hypothesis, they remain in blissful ignorance about the working ability of their dogs. Yeah, that sounded bitchy, I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 what do you mean SPORTS/AKC people? I dont do herding but I do compete in sports with my border collies, that does not mean they cant work, misty is straight off a cattle ranch, and both happys parents are straight off of sheep farms. happy was bred for flyball yes, but she was out of herding parents. I apologize if I read your post wronge. kindly explain what you mean? :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Here is what I said: Another thing is that sports/AKC people tend to think that of course, their dogs could do what our dogs do, if they put in the time and training (but they have all these other important sports, so who has the time, plus, sheep are so dirty and nasty). Since they rarely test this hypothesis, they remain in blissful ignorance about the working ability of their dogs. You don't know whether your dogs have talent to work stock or not because you have never worked them. This is not a problem -- there are plenty of excellent Border Collie owners who are seriously into dog sports and never work their dogs and I'm glad they have Border Collies, glad they enjoy them, and glad they give them good homes. I do sports with both of my dogs, as Solo does agility and Fly is learning flyball. However, I think it is wrong to breed dogs who are not proven to be good workers and I think it is detrimental to the breed to breed for sports rather than herding. A lot of sports people I know tend to just assume that their dogs would be able to work sheep well if they tried, because they are Border Collies, but from what I have seen this is often not the case when they actually put the theory to the test. The fact is that good working ability goes away when you stop selecting for it and when you stop selecting for it, you aren't producing good examples of the breed anymore. It is irresponsible to breed dogs that are not intended to improve the breed. A Border Collie that is produced without regard to working ability has therefore been produced by an irresponsible breeder. If you are not breeding dogs for sports, you have nothing to be offended about. If you are breeding dogs just for sports, then I think you are doing something wrong and you can be offended about that if you want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 ok I gotcha now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigD Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Well, *I* take offense. You said: "Another thing is that sports/AKC people tend to think that of course, their dogs could do what our dogs do, if they put in the time and training (but they have all these other important sports, so who has the time, plus, sheep are so dirty and nasty). Since they rarely test this hypothesis, they remain in blissful ignorance about the working ability of their dogs." Ya know - A LOT of people don't have access to sheep - EVER. And A LOT of people have a strong desire to work their dogs on anything that they can - ducks, chickens - whatever. And A LOT of these people may only have access to AKC events and want to work with their dogs. A LOT of these people may not agree with the AKC at all, but choose to participate in these "important sports" because - they are there, they are fun and they enjoy this time with their dogs. There are plenty of folks on this board that would give their right arm to get their dogs on some sheep and be able to work with someone that knew what the hell they were doing. But they can't, so instead we are less than you? I've worked my rescue Border Collie about 15 times on sheep. I know nothing, continue to know nothing and there isn't one person on this island that can train a stock dog that is willing to work with a bunch of green handlers. So don't give me a "mightier than thou" attitude just becuase I'm a "sports/AKC" person. I hate the AKC just as much as most people on this board do. I've tried like mad to get a NADAC agility club going so that I had an alternative to the AKC agility. No luck. I could easily sit at home and hike with my dog and play ball. But I enjoy going out and I enjoy the competition that the Border Collie folks have in a fun way. So I will bite my tounge and get my ILP and register my pup to the AKC. But I won't breed and I won't advocate breeding of the show champs on this island - ever. But I will take offense at your post of lumping in the "sports/AKC" folks - which I happen to be one of. If I had a choice between going to a sheep dog trial or an AKC herding trial - the choice would be simple. I don't care to see a bunch of Barbie Collies afraid to get their paws dirty. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 bigD has a point, I dont compete in AKC sports I compete in NADAC, and NAFA, and AAC, AND I keep sports in mind when looking for a border collie, I do plan on moving to a farm with sheep in a few years but sheep are impossabe right now. that does not however make my BCs any less then ones that do have the oppertunity to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 > No, not less, and Melanie never said you were. Her point was that in general AKC sports folks would not be impressed with a sheepdog trial because they would think, with no basis whatsoever for thinking it, that their dog could do as well if they cared to try. Having heard this again and again from AKC sports types, I have to agree with her. If it doesn't apply to you, there's no reason for you to be offended. > Not if you're participating in AKC events, you don't. > You certainly could. There are endless activities you could do with your dog, not involving the AKC, that would be fun for both of you. > Well, how much your personal enjoyment should count for in the great scheme of things is a decision only you can make. But you can't stop other people from making general observations about AKC sports people, just because you think they don't apply to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigD Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 <> I didn't get "in general" part. It was more of an "all AKC/sports" folk to me. And maybe where you are there are more of the Barbie Collie type, but out here - it's 2 different things. Very few, if any, of the confirmation AKC folk compete in the "sports" side. And most of the sports folks are ILP rescue dogs. There are 2 exceptions that I know of on this island. As the president of our small but well-meaning Border Collie club, I do know for a fact that 95% of our members would rather see are REAL sheep - dog trial then an AKC herding test anyday. I supposed (and I can see this) that we may be different than the norm? <> I didn't say she should stop. I said I took offense. Because she said that the AKC/Sports folk are this and that. She never said "in general" or "the majority of..." And I only wanted to point out that *I* as an AKC/Sprots person do NOT feel this way and I know quite a few that do not feel this way. On the whole - I agree with the observation, but from my experience not all are like this. But again, I have a feeling that Hawaii may be different in this situation. And I think it's because there are no other alternatives to the AKC here. Thus, we have a number of folks that grumble about the AKC, but can't get any good seminars or competitions due to quarantine restrictions, travel distance, costs, etc. I will apologize for getting so ticked off. If something bugs me on these boards, I will usually walk away for a day and then come back to it and not feel half as "personal." Alas, I didn't follow my own rules. But I think you all should know that there are some folks out there that would love to see the Border Collie kicked out of AKC, or sheep-dog trials daily or what have you. And that some of us are trying to make things a little harder for the AKC - even if that only means one less registration from Hawaii. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 > I think you probably are, if only because most people don't want to be involved with something they "hate." But also because most people on the mainland do have more choice, and if they choose AKC herding over sheepdog and cattledog trials it's because they prefer it. > She said "tend to." If I said Americans tend to think that capitalism is the best economic system (just to take an example at random), I wouldn't be saying that all Americans think that. > Agreed. > Sounds good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.