tucknjill Posted February 18, 2003 Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Help! Have a ewe who should be due any day, twins from the looks of it. She is down, shaking front end, looks like fatigue...eyes look droopy, like she cant wake up...clear discharge running from the nose. Udder not bagged up, but vulva slightly flacid looking...so dont think she is in labor and tired from trying. Doesnt look like she has the runs, but gave her scour treatment, Nutri Cal, wormed her and gave her 7cc's of Penicillan. I know, I know, I am either gonna cure her or kill her with all that...any other ideas??? Thanks so much, really dont want to lose this ewe!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Hey Inci, Will walk out and check her now...Have Kayro, will travel!! Will check her ears and breath and report back! Thanks!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Ok so the ears are warm, breath smells sweet like the Nutri Cal stuff I put down her earlier (mollasses based sp?) She at least fought me when I went at her with the Karyo...Drainage out of her nose is not clear anymore, is now cloudy grey white...??? Of course we have had all this snow, so any ideas as to whats wrong? She is walking stiff legged, esp in the rear. Her membranes in her eyes are pink, not white...was wormed like 5-6 weeks ago with cydectin and was right as rain two days ago...only thing I have done different..I marketed 20 ewes a week ago and have kept grain the same amout...50 lbs lamb starter pellets for like 50 small lambs and 15 ewes plus say 2 60 lbs bales of hay...?? Didnt know if maybe she got too much grain or something??? Anyway, thanks for your help! Hope she makes the night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Hey Inci, My mom has scared me for life "food is love!!!!!!!!" Thanks for the input and I will see what tomorrow brings...Lord knows there is no room left in her for anymore stuff! Wondered why everyone was always raggin me for my fat sheep! (kidding, the ewes actually look a bit poor, but I think that is due to the CL which is why I am dumping them ASAP!!!) Anyway, thanks a bunch and hope your husband is doing better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2003 Good lord Inci, well I will be keeping figers crossed for you...been there done that on nursing a very sick family member and it aint easy...Keep yer chin up! sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted February 19, 2003 Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 'Cuz if we had a lick of sense, Inci, you guys couldn't fool us so much... Â That's wonderful about your husband...just keep on him about the next operation. Â Any wheezing, Sam? Or other sign of respiratoy distress besides the discharge? Â Have you tried to reach in and seen if she's dilated? Â Or if you can reach in, then she is dilated, is the lamb positioned right...she might have been trying and given up before you noticed? Â Could be grain overload like Inci says though, especially with no signs...how's she doing today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 Well wonder of wonders she didnt die..I thought she was a gonner for sure last night...today she is up, not shaking though rear legs still a bit stiff...gonna have my husband palpate her (hes a nurse) Her nose discharge is better too..guess I better keep on with the penicillan..though I am not sure what exactly helped her... Anyway, had another set of twins last night...just love this lambing in the snow...my all time fav! Thanks guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 19, 2003 Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 Hey Sam, Â I didn't have a chance to check the boards for a while. This sounds like acidosis (grain overload) to me. The discharge could be due to an opportunistic pnuemonia. Â Here's what I would do if you think it is grain overload. Â 1.) Put her off by herself and feed her only hay. Â 2.) Keep water in front of her at all times and monitor her intake. If she's not drinking at least a quart a day, drench her. Acidosis toxifies the blood and can lead to kidney failure. You want to keep them flushed out. Â 2a.) B vitamins are also a potent antitoxin. You could probably give her a few injections of B complex as well. Â 3.) Give her 20ccs of Maalox or similar antacid twice a day. This will help the rumen return to its proper pH. Â 4.) Continue the penicillin for at least four days. If the discharge hasn't cleared up by then or she has raspy breathing, you may need to switch to another class of antibiotics. Â 5.) If she's not getting up on her own, get her on her feet several times a day so she can pee. Â 6.) Massage the rumen. The grain can become a big doughy mass in there that prevents anything from moving. Kneading it can sometimes stimulate the rumen to start functioning again. Â 7.) When she returns to eating hay and seems better, you'll need to repopulate the rumen with the appropriate microorganisms. There are probiotics for cattle and sheep that work well. Yogurt is an okay second choice. A third choice (probably most effective but high on the yuck-o-meter) is to steal some cud from another ewe and drench her with it. Â In general, I would cut back on your grain drastically. Feed the little lambs in a creep area where they can get in by the mothers can't. You'll have more of these cases if you continue feeding that much grain to that many sheep. Â It also concerns me some that she is due any day and has not bagged up yet. Is it possible that she's not bred but is just plain old fat? Or was she running with the rams for a long time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharon Nunan Posted February 19, 2003 Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 Bill, Â Regarding Tip #6 --- Where and how would one "massage the Rumen"? Not sure exactly where on the sheep's stomach would you start this and how much pressure would you apply. I had an ewe with suspected grain overload last year and helped her through it with success, but didn't know about the "massage" part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted February 19, 2003 Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 For the record, can you also explain how you'd go about extracting cud? Blech. But just in case I ever had to do it . . .you never know with sheep! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 Thanks Bill!!! Great Post, anxiously awaiting the massage location! Treatment thus far seems to be working and I will take up your other suggestions. I am pretty sure she is pregnant, she was with the ram for at least 2 and a half months and does have a slight udder, just not the full bag they have prior to lambing..I have her jugged up and am monitoring water and did discontinue grain...feeding only hay at this point. I will up my hay ration and cut back on the grain...I really didnt think that it would make that much difference, but duh guess I did cut my adult sheep roughly in half in that field...Will set up a creep feeder for my lambs, but hoping to get rid of all but five ewes in about one week. (God, please!!! Going broke feeding all these sheep, course guess that wouldnt be the case if I wasnt pumping the grain to them like that.) Â Anyway thanks for the advice Inci, sure wish I COULD find hay like that around here..had some alfalfa trucked in from Penn. but that is all gone...was all I could get...feeding oat hay which tested out at like 12% the farmer said and then the mixture of pellets and whole corn. And you are right, I hate it when the ewes look poor, cant stand to see the things not looking plush. At least the lambs are looking fit, hate this time of year with no grass...sigh..winter blues! Â Thanks! I do like talking sheep...Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 Oh and one more thing...I must be the only fool on the planet that reads the southern states label...but it said 1-2 lbs of pellets per head of sheep plus whatever the hay was..cant exactly remember...that is where I got the amount I was feeding and was cutting it greatly from what they said..was feeding like 1 lbs per animal (till the other 20 left)...why do the list such high amounts??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 19, 2003 Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 Massage the left flank just behind the rib cage. Find a healthy ewe and see how hers feels, then feel the overloaded ewe. You'll feel the doughy blob if it's there. Â Sam, they say to feed so much becuase they are in the business of selling grain. If you ramp up, you could easily feed ewes two, three or even fourn pounds of pelleted feed daily. If you're buying it in bags, you'll go broke doing it, but they won't get sick from it if they have enough time to adjust to it. Â When I barn lambed a highly prolific flock (purebred Finnsheep), I was feeding three pounds per head per day to ewes that might have weighed 120 pounds soaking wet. They were raising an average of 3.6 lambs each. Â But as Inci says, sheep are ruminants. They don't need grain. Grain is a convenience for shepherds or an economic decision. I'm currently using a half a pound of grain per day so that I don't have to feed another half a round bale per day. The grain costs about the same as a whole round bale, but the labor it saves me is worth it. Â In other cases, such as out in Iowa, grain is the cheapest feedstuff. People use as much as they can to keep the cost of the total ration down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 19, 2003 Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 Inci says no water, and I say force fluids. I say force fluids because I think the kidneys are compromised and need to be detoxified. Withholding fluids doesn't seem to make sense -- what's the thinking there, Inci. Â Oh, Sam, 12 percent CP hay is nothing to sneeze at, and oat hay is usually pretty good in energy. I'll bet you don't really need any grain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2003 Ok, trying to process all this...I will go out and feel she doesnt look bloated at all and I have no yellow goo coming out and was chewing cud all day...only thing I do have is a stiff gait in the rear...but looked at another ewe and she is stiff as well, course her belly is litterally dragging the ground, ..if she doesnt have triplets I will shoot myself in the foot. ( I am wondering if the lameness could be scald from all the snow and mud. ) Anyway, the nasal drainage is drying up significantly...I was also talking to a shepherd friend of mine and they thought it might be pnemonia due to the weather and also she is heavy with lamb and lying still alot....which might explain why the antibiotics worked...??? So do I take her off fluids trying to cover myself if it is the grain overload? Â Oh and would you guys still say no grain seeing that I have NO grass??? Is it still ok to feed hay only and really lighten up on the grain? I was going to go to 3 bales of hay and one five gal bucket of pellets (currently feeding two, = 50lbs) Hell now when the rest of my ewes leave I am gonna have to figure this all out again...mutter mutter. Â Oh Inci now if I got mad and punched you I might hurt my tender little hand!!! Sides being a red head, I am known for my mild manner and non confrontational attitude...Just ask anyone who knows me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 20, 2003 Report Share Posted February 20, 2003 Hi Sam, Â A mild-mannered non-confrontational redhead. Now I've seen it all. Â The key to ration formulation is that you need to know what you're feeding. Sheep need a certain level of energy, measured in Total Digestible Nutrients or TDN, and a certain amount of Crude Protein or CP. If you have your hay analyzed, you'll get these numbers back as a percentage of dry matter. Â From there, it's a matter of plugging numbers into the equations. A ewe will consume about three percent of her body weight in dry matter per day when she's open. Thus, a 150 pound ewe will consume 4.5 pounds of dry matter. In late gestation, the amount of physical space available for dry matter declines, so you need to feed feedstuffs that are more nutritionally dense than in the early stages of gestation. Â During lactation, there's plenty of room in the gut, but the increase demands on the body also require "denser" feed. Â But anyway, back to ration formulation. You should invest in the Sheep Industry Development Handbook. It's a huge three-ring binder that contains page upon page of tables with the nutritional values of various feedstuffs and the nutritional needs of sheep of various weights and stages of production. Â Just as an illustration, let's presume that your oat hay is 85 percent dry matter (yes, most hay is 15 percent moisture) has a CP rating of 12 percent and a TDN of 55 percent on a dry matter basis. Â To figure out how much protein and energy your sheep are getting, you would multiply the amount of hay that you're giving them by .85 to arrive at the level of dry matter. Then multiply that by .12 for the amount of CP, and .55 for the amount of TDN. Then look up the appropriate table for your sheep and see if it's adequate. Â From there, you would start adding or subtracting feed to complete the ration. Personally, I try to use as much forage as possible because it's the cheapest source of energy here. In other parts of the world, grain is cheaper. But there's a limit to how much hay sheep will eat. It's a bulky feed, not particularly dense nutritionally. Your grain pellets are probably 16 percent CP and 85 or 90 percent TDN, by way of comparison. If you don't have really top shelf hay, they may not be physically able to eat enough to meet their nutritional needs. Legume hay or silage is wonderful this way, because it is much more nutritionally dense (generally speaking) than grass hay. Â But the first step in all this is to know what you're feeding. Hay analysis is cheap. Some feed stores around here will do it for free. I think cooperative extension (which I trust more) charges $10 or $20. It's an incredibly small investment in animal nutrition that is almost always skipped. Â It sounded as if the farmer you bought your hay from has had the feed analyzed. He may have all the information you need. The supplier of the pellets ought to be able to tell you the appropriate figures on their product. Â And you need to weigh some bales. Not every one, but enough to learn whether they're consistent (most small squares aren't) and whether they're 30 pounds or 60 pounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted February 20, 2003 Report Share Posted February 20, 2003 Y'know Inci, I had actually written a post about not feeding grain and deleted - figured I didn't want to argue... Â Right now, becuase I have poor quality hay due to a very wet haying season, I am feeding what I consider to be a HUGE amount of grain - 1/2# a day like Mr. Fosher...and I'm worried about lambing problems because of it... Â Sam, as far as no grass and only feeding hay - you all ever seen a picture of "up north" in January - ain't no grass here, the little ladies eat only grass hay - or when I have to buy it, alfalfa, which I consider to hot so I starve them a bit, or try to alternate bales in the yard. Â And Bill F.'s numbers are a good start, but "your sheep may differ" - in fact may differ greatly, from the "book sheep", so while you are putting this all together in your mind, keep checking body condition of sheep - which the SIH has info on. Â My NCC's for example, especially the ones raised here, can survive quite well on way under 4.5# a day of tdn when open...sometimes on less even during late gestation and still have twins...whereas the Ramboulliets (I just sold) needed HUGE amounts more than that... Â A question - how do you feed your grain or hay? Do the ewes feed with thier feet in the air? If so, this can be a contributing factor to "swaybacking" and difficult births - as well as prolapses - the baby needs to be pushed uphill... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2003 Hey guys, Gonna be tied up all day, will answer when I get back in tonight, but thanks a bunch and I do have more questions...arent you just so thrilled...Thanks! and back tonight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 20, 2003 Report Share Posted February 20, 2003 Rebecca, Â There may be a better way to do it, but I walk up behind a ewe that's half asleep chewing her cud, snatch her up bald headed and stick my finger in there and pull a bit of it out. Â Then over to the ewe that needs it ... just a pinch between the cheek and gums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2003 Oh god bill that sounds gross! Â Sorry too worn out tonight to write much, I really do have more questions...Do you guys know how f'ing hard it is to work ten dogs when your pasture is no lie, solidly covered with about 3" of water and slush, my knees are killlllling me! Julie will bear witness....A river runs thru it!!! So anyway, I just delivered triplets and fed everyone (takes a LONG time to haul all that grain!) Anyway, time for a long hot bath, I stick like afterbirth..kinda fun sorting them out and getting them out...first one was born dead, but other two are doing good...and sick ewe is holding her own...a busy day on ye ole homestead! Â Anyway, G' Nite! Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 "Do you guys know how f'ing hard it is to work ten dogs when your pasture is no lie, solidly covered with about 3" of water and slush," Â Every spring, Sam, I thought that was normal... Â As far as your perfume, bet the dogs think you're wonderful... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 21, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Sheesh, not me, I thought I would get away from all this water when we moved out of the last swamp we moved in...Man I am ready for spring... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 I whine a little when I have to run out there in my dress shoes but otherwise I'm THRILLED at all the mud and slush here! I'm seeing spring pastures filled with vegetation instead of the last two spring wastelands . . .I fed hay ALL YEAR last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted February 21, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Yeah trouble is, I probably wont get any rain all summer and I will be feeding hay again all year too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordi44 Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 I came late to the party, but did anyone consider Ketosis (aka Pregnancy disease)? It'll cause a very pregnant ewe to go down or sometimes be stiff looking (due to weakness), and it seems to be more likely to hit overweight ewes carrying twins or triplets. Nutri-drench and/or propylene glycol are life-savers (literally). I went through gallons a few years ago until a friend tipped me off to using molasses licks (wonderful tubs that are great feed pans when empty). Have had few problems since - and my sheep are on grain with molasses mixed in. Grain isn't necessarily evil - just has to be fed right. I honestly believe that I wouldn't have ewes lambing 3 times in a 2 year period without it. If your sheep are getting fat, cut back on the grain, but be careful with cutting back on ewes near term. Well, that's my two cents for whatever you think it's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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