JeanJeanBoBean Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 I have a 6 month old BC. We got him at 7 weeks from a farmer with working dogs. When I purchased him he had no shots and wasn't fully weened but I felt the breeder didn't expect a pregnancy and wanted the puppies gone ASAP so the mother could get back to work. When I got our BC he was playful, no alpha demonstrations, adapted well, slept and ate and pooped normally. He was a pure delight. But of course, he did things that needed to be corrected: his bite inhibition was lacking and he herded my 8 year old from day one. From what I've read, we needed to help both these instances with positive reinforcement, gently reprimanding, discouragement, etc. We have never hit or scolded the dog harshly, at least not at first. When I say hit, I mean a tap on the nose with my finger or a nudge in the butt with my palm. Nothing that would be considered abusive or cruel. I didn't want to shatter his confidence. During training, he responded well to treats and commands and playtime and such. We have socialized with him with humans of all ages and animals of all types. He even had a friendship with my friends guinea pigs. But recently (since about 4 months of age) he has been urinating out of excitement and fear: mostly he pees with my husband when he comes home from work, or meeting new people, but lately it's been for being scolded in ANY way (a firm look, a pointed finger, a stern no.) He had gotten overly aggressive with my son: my kid is active and runs and plays and dances a lot and if my BC is near him when this happens, he just bites him without warning. We have NEVER discouraged growling because we would rather know what's wrong than let random biting incidents happen. He listens to commands but then promptly ignores them: he will find things to chew on knowing we don't like it, he shreds my plants to death, he begs for food even though we NEVER feed him from the table or from any place that isn't his food bowl, or in a manner not directly related to commands and tricks. The thing is, when I did my research on BC for years before making the leap to getting one, I knew the breed was hyper and active and needed attention. I play with this dog more than I play with my own child because he is SO demanding of attention. I throw the ball so much, my kid has gotten upset that I won't spend time with him. But if I don't my dog will bark and whine and pee. HOURS a day we spend on this dog. More than he should need, in my opinion. I've broken it up to fifteen minutes to a half hour every couple of hours so that playtime extends across a full day. We've gone through so many tennis balls and frisbees. I love that the dog is active and I don't mind spending the time with him. I just hate being bullied into it. I've tried ignoring him: leads to destruction: I've tried taking toys away: leads to urination and aggression or being constantly shadowed (underfoot when I cook, clean, use the bathroom, ESPECIALLY when I carry heavy or dangerous objects through the house, he loves to dart in front of me and stop so I trip over him). I've tried crating him (not as punishment) during moments I think he will get in my way. If I continue to do that, he will always be in his crate. 10 hours at night and 5-6 during the day. I have tried training him to stay and hold. It he stays for a minute and the moment I walk away he's getting into trouble. I'm really at a loss now. I don't want a dog that does whatever he wants despite my efforts. I'm consistent and thorough with commands and I try to keep him stimulated but he's proving to be more difficult than I could have ever imagined. He's sweet and loving but also monsterous and annoying. It's like Jekyll and Hyde and I'm close to rehoming him. Any advice would be welcome, but please keep it respectful and civil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 I would recommend getting a competent trainer to come to your home to observe how you and your family interact with him. They can then get you working on a plan to provide more structure, rules and boundaries for your pup. Most of what you described sounds like a pup that isn't getting enough mental stimulation and not learning impulse control. He is being catered to too much. Throwing a ball for a border collie for hours a day is going to create a wild pup that demands fetch for hours a day. Replace the fetching with leashed walks, trick training, impulse control training (teach "place", loose leash walking, sit/wait for things he wants-food, outside). Reward and encourage calm behavior. I wouldn't suggest playing more than 5-10 min a day of fetch with a young pup. I would suspect that if you taught him to walk on a loose leash and replaced the hours of fetch with walks, he would calm down considerably. Sometimes too young kids and border collies don't mix. Especially if the owners don't have experience with the breed. I would definitely get in person help so they can see exactly how a normal day is in the household. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 A lot of what you outline here is pretty normal behavior for a puppy. Submissive urination or urination from excitement is a puppy thing. Not all pups do it, but it's not unusual. It is something you just have to manage as best you can until the pup grows out of it. Try to have him greet your husband or meet new people outdoors, or on a tile floor. Ditto with correcting him -- avoid giving corrections strong enough to cause him to pee when he's on a rug or on furniture, and definitely don't correct him for submissive peeing -- it will only make him try to show more submission. You do say that the pup will pee if you don't throw the ball a lot with him or if you take toys away, but is that really the case? That would be much more unusual, and pretty odd. When your son plays and dances next to your pup, and the pup "bites him without warning," it could well be that he is soliciting play or responding to what he interprets as a play solicitation. Young pups typically bite one another when they run and play. If you find it hard to tell whether the biting is out of aggression or out of playfulness, it might be good to have an experienced trainer observe, as waffles suggests, so that you can be sure which it is, and act accordingly. I agree that you do not need to spend this much time throwing a ball for your pup. It only accustoms him to that level of exercise, which is more than you want. I agree that loose-leash walks, teaching tricks, and teaching impulse control would be better. There is also nothing wrong with crating a pup of this age 15 or 16 hours a day, properly spaced, IMO. As a start toward impulse control training, teach him to sit calmly before letting him out of his crate, and progress to teaching him to sit and stay before letting him out of his crate. You have the upper hand in that situation -- he cannot get the better of you, so you can be calm and effective. If you think he'll dart past you before you tell him it's okay to come out, and you might not be quick enough to shut the crate door, close the door to the room the crate is in before this exercise so he can't escape. There are a few things in your account that give me pause, for example: "he will find things to chew on, knowing we don't like it" "I don't mind spending the time with him. I just hate being bullied into it." "he loves to dart in front of me and stop so I trip over him" Please try not to attribute bad motives to your pup, even in your mind. I know it may be hard to do, but it's important to change that mindset. The pup finds things to chew on because pups like to chew in general, and are driven to chew when teething. He isn't bullying you, he's asking you to spend time with him; if you give in to that when it's more than you think is right, that's on you, not on him. He's not trying to trip you up, he's just drawn to want your company and be near you and interact with you. You need to discourage the behavior you don't like and encourage the behavior you do, and that takes time and patience and creativity. Of course you're very, very exasperated and frustrated with him, but it's an impediment to your training to let that come through to him, and please believe me, it comes through to him loud and clear. "What can I do, she doesn't like me!" That message is devastating to a border collie pup, and it cannot fail to get in the way of the messages you are trying to get across to him. You and he need to be a team in this effort to teach him what's wrong and what's right. I wish you the best with him, and that you will think it was all worth it as time goes by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Wow. Some great insights here. Very glad I read it, despite not having these particular issues. This community is a great resource. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 A lot of what you outline here is pretty normal behavior for a puppy. Submissive urination or urination from excitement is a puppy thing. Not all pups do it, but it's not unusual. It is something you just have to manage as best you can until the pup grows out of it. Try to have him greet your husband or meet new people outdoors, or on a tile floor. Ditto with correcting him -- avoid giving corrections strong enough to cause him to pee when he's on a rug or on furniture, and definitely don't correct him for submissive peeing -- it will only make him try to show more submission. You do say that the pup will pee if you don't throw the ball a lot with him or if you take toys away, but is that really the case? That would be much more unusual, and pretty odd. When your son plays and dances next to your pup, and the pup "bites him without warning," it could well be that he is soliciting play or responding to what he interprets as a play solicitation. Young pups typically bite one another when they run and play. If you find it hard to tell whether the biting is out of aggression or out of playfulness, it might be good to have an experienced trainer observe, as waffles suggests, so that you can be sure which it is, and act accordingly. I agree that you do not need to spend this much time throwing a ball for your pup. It only accustoms him to that level of exercise, which is more than you want. I agree that loose-leash walks, teaching tricks, and teaching impulse control would be better. There is also nothing wrong with crating a pup of this age 15 or 16 hours a day, properly spaced, IMO. As a start toward impulse control training, teach him to sit calmly before letting him out of his crate, and progress to teaching him to sit and stay before letting him out of his crate. You have the upper hand in that situation -- he cannot get the better of you, so you can be calm and effective. If you think he'll dart past you before you tell him it's okay to come out, and you might not be quick enough to shut the crate door, close the door to the room the crate is in before this exercise so he can't escape. There are a few things in your account that give me pause, for example: "he will find things to chew on, knowing we don't like it" "I don't mind spending the time with him. I just hate being bullied into it." "he loves to dart in front of me and stop so I trip over him" Please try not to attribute bad motives to your pup, even in your mind. I know it may be hard to do, but it's important to change that mindset. The pup finds things to chew on because pups like to chew in general, and are driven to chew when teething. He isn't bullying you, he's asking you to spend time with him; if you give in to that when it's more than you think is right, that's on you, not on him. He's not trying to trip you up, he's just drawn to want your company and be near you and interact with you. You need to discourage the behavior you don't like and encourage the behavior you do, and that takes time and patience and creativity. Of course you're very, very exasperated and frustrated with him, but it's an impediment to your training to let that come through to him, and please believe me, it comes through to him loud and clear. "What can I do, she doesn't like me!" That message is devastating to a border collie pup, and it cannot fail to get in the way of the messages you are trying to get across to him. You and he need to be a team in this effort to teach him what's wrong and what's right. I wish you the best with him, and that you will think it was all worth it as time goes by. This is excellent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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