Abnormally Shaped Iris?

[vbgrim]

I was hoping someone would be able to shed some light on a genetics question/issue.

Our family is considering adding another Border Collie to our ranks, and had some concerns about a Blue Merle tri colored female with merled eyes (not sure I’m using the correct nomenclature).

I’ve attached a pic of the dog in question and you’ll notice at about 7 O’Clock an abnormality in the shape of her iris. I’ve confirmed this with other pictures supplied by the breeder.

I questioned if there were a merle/merle breeding and she told me the dam was a “solid shaded sable”, and the sire was a “slate blue merle”.

I am questioning the genetics, and was hoping someone with more knowledge, insight, and education may shed some light on this, and if this was any indicator of eye problems or genetic weakness, or just a good ole garden variety, harmless abnormality.

[Maxi]

I can't see the pupil clearly on my screen

 

..but if it makes the iris look as if there is a notch at the 6 or 7 o'clock position then it could be a coloboma. This is a defect that occurs as the eye forms during development. It can be restricted to just the iris or can extend right back through to the optic nerve at the back of the eye.

 

Alternatively, It could be thinning of the iris (iris hypoplasia). If the pupil is 'off-centered' then it is called corectopia and an odd shaped pupil = dyscoria. Again, all these are defects that may occur during development.

 

Like many of these things, there are both inherited and 'sporadic'(non-inherited) forms.

 

However, an increased incidence of all these eye defects (plus others) is observed in Merle dogs..and given the pictures and the description of her parents, I would guess that in this pup's case, the abnormality in her eye is probably associated to the genetics of her coat colouring.

 

ETA. It sounds as if the breeder of this pup is breeding for colour. I suggest that if you are interested in buying a BC pup that you read this post first and follow the links in it to obtain further advice.

[vbgrim]

I didn't mention anything about the pupil. On the outer rim of the iris it is very clear that at about 7 O'Clock there is a "bump" in the otherwise round shape.

[Tess's Girl]

 

I questioned if there were a merle/merle breeding and she told me the dam was a “solid shaded sable”, and the sire was a “slate blue merle”.

 

 

Sable can sometimes hide Merle.If they have the gene but it doesn't show in the coat pattern the dam could possibly be a "cryptic merle." Was the dam genetically tested to make sure she doesn't have the merle gene? Do you know the coloring of the dam's parents? If not, it could still be a merle/merle breeding.

 

I suspect that my girl Tess (in my avatar) is a cryptic merle. She's sable, but there are a few patches on her coat that make me suspicious. Her father is technically merle, though he doesn't show much of the pattern, and there were a couple of merle pups in her litter. I plan to have her tested eventually to satisfy my curiosity. I would check into the dams parents to see if she could, in fact, be merle as well.

 

As for the eye, I see the bump your talking about. I don't think it's normal, but I couldn't guess as to what it is. Also, there is something about that same eye that looks very "off" in the first picture. I can't place it and sometimes photos can just appear weird, but going off those two photos I would be nervous about this pup. Were both parents tested for CEA?

 

What is it that drew you to this breeder? If you decide not to go with this pup, more experience folks than me here may be able to point you in a different direction.

[Maxi]

OK.. I am now on my main computer and can see the iris anomaly you are concerned about

 

Like Tess' Girl I also don't think it is normal. If you want a full explanation of how this probably occurred during the pup's development then I can provide this.

 

Is it a just a one-off "oddity" or is there something else wrong with the inside of her eye?.....IMO It could be either and it would require a full eye exam from an expert in canine opthalmology to be certain that there was no further problems with her eye(s).

 

From the genetics viewpoint, even if this pup has inherited just one copy of the merle variant from a parent, it is still possible for the 2nd copy of the gene to become mutated in some cells of the developing embryo. Depending on when and where this occurs, will determine what areas and how much of the body are affected. So it is possible for a dog to be only a carrier of the Merle gene, but to have patches of cells in his/her body that have both copies of the Merle gene affected (this is called a "genetic mosaic").

 

As I said in my previous post, there is an increased incidence in a range of eye abnormalities in Merle dogs.

 

As I also said before, it sounds as if the breeder of this pup is breeding for colour. I suggest that if you are interested in buying a BC pup that you read this post first and follow the links in it to obtain further advice.

[vbgrim]

I'll have to go back and check into the genetics/colorings of the parents. I also thought that the sable would be considered a variant of merle.
Nothing drew me to this particular breeder. Being an outsider in the border collie world here in Upstate NY, I have nothing more than web searches to find dogs when we add them to our family.
I know that it is somewhat shallow to have such a strong preference for certain colors or coloring, but within that realm I, of course, am looking for a socially and genetically sound animal. (that shouldn't be impossible).
I have strong suspicions for these breeders who advertise online, as the way I see it - if their dogs were of a high quality, they would all be accounted for before they were even born. This particualar breeder is Nightshades Border Collies, and from what I can see, they/he has many litters which are described as being his, his daughters, his sons, other relatives, etc. I have had some phone conversations and got pictures and some video. I haven't been able to unveil any info on breeding conditions and regularity or any experience from previous owners of these dogs. I would gladly explore any and all breeders I can find, but I think being outside that world, I am never going to have access to the highest quality animals.

BTW, I greatly appreciate all of your feedback. I am an incessant researcher.

We got our current BC from a woman who lives in Upstate NY and breeds her dogs on occasion. I wanted a BC, and my daughter wanted this particular color when we looked at the litter. So far we are very happy with her. If I could change one thing, I'd make her more cuddly (if that's a word), but I guess that's just a roll of the dice. She cuddles for about 8 seconds, then it must be like nails on a chalkboard for her lol.

[Maxi]

Sable and Merle are different genes. If you are interested http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/index.htm seems to have quite a good description of the different genes associated with dog coat colour - but I haven't checked through the whole site.

 

some of the members here may be able to advise you about breeders near to where you live

Edited January 17, 2015 by Maxi

[chene]

Unfortunately I don't know anyone I can recommend, but I can provide this, taken from a thread a few years ago. If it's the same breeder, I guess you have your answer about whether to get a pup from them. For some reason it's not showing up as a quote, but here's the link to the thread:

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=32064

 

"Buying a puppy is not a crap shoot if one knows this. I feel a breeder should have ABCA lineage, but there are always bad apples in a good barrel. I got my little Eluane from a horrible!!! breeder who had ABCA papers but as an inexperienced first-time owner, even though I researched for over a year about Border Collies and even attended a puppy obedience class without a puppy, lol! and read cover-to-cover 12 dog books dedicated to owning and training dogs both in agility and in behavior, I still made the dreaded stupid mistake of trusting Puppy Finder ratings. EGADS!!!!! The name of the breeder is Nightshades Border Collies near Wichita, Kansas in Douglass (you can find them online uggggh!), so if they still have those ABCA association, they should be banned. They have no dogs who do herding, they have way too many dogs, conditions are not that clean either (unsold dogs are penned up). The saddest thing was how they treated Eluane's mother Oaktre Cheyenne 5 months later, but that's another long story. Poor Eluane had 5 full-blown infections of Roundworms, hookworms, whipworms, Giardia, and Coccidia. They were supposed to worm her but didn't! It took me forever to get my ABCA papers too (2 months of waiting). Maybe because I'm Asian American they thought they could get away with bloody murder. I had paid for Eluane in full too, at just 3 weeks' old, waiting to drive to Douglass to pick her up at 7 weeks, and she was very expensive $550 total. Prices on Border collies have probably risen since then...

http://www.nightshadesbordercollies.com/

This proves that websites can be completely deceiving and that you cannot trust anyone until you talk to a Rescue Organization or even ABCA to help refer you.....A breeder's website can always lie and make up stories about their dogs. Real owners don't lie and neither will a good, responsible, and very experienced breeder. IMHO, most border collies should not be bred unless they have outstanding mental keeness and discernment, great steady love-to-please and drive, good temperament-the ability to settle and to listen, and top scoring hips and eye (no physical weaknesses)...It's too easy for many owners to have inflated views of how special and smart their dog is, and it takes a rare person, and very special breeder to be completely impartial and unbiased. Keenness is actually measureable-- and that is the ability for the dog to learn new things right away, the intricacies of the commands, the ability to work the field when herding...this is to preserve the best characteristics of the breed and for genetics' sake. Other signs are what accommplishments has the breeder's dog made. Eluane's Granddad was supposed to be Rockin' G Spurs and yes he did have real credentials in the photos all that..but just because you've got the lineage, the descendents can be abused by an irresponsible breeder who purchased the offspring of a good breeder. These are some of the complications that can occur. Always purchase direct from the "real" breeder."

[Sue R]

Welcome! This board is a great resource for all things Border Collie *but* please read the link that several people have already provided. It will explain the philosophy of these boards, particularly with regards to the responsible breeding of these dogs. Members here use their dogs in working livestock, dog performance sports, and as companion and family dogs, but they strictly advocate getting pups/dogs from and supporting responsible breeders.

 

I went to the website and will give you my opinion - pure and simple, this is a high-volume breeder of pups that are bred for the sake of income/sales, for color, and for the pet/sport crowd without any interest in maintaining the Border Collie as anything but a saleable product. The "association" with family members who also breed for the same reasons is somewhat of a red flag, often really just a reason to breed a higher volume of pups without it appearing that any one of the breeders (who are all family or associated) are breeding so many. A number of discredited breeders have been known to use this technique. AKC registration is the norm for this breeder.

 

There is not one single reason that I can see to even consider this breeder as a source of a well-bred, responsibly-bred pup, and I can see a lot of evidence to the contrary in their website and from comments made from others who have had first-hand, personal experience with these individuals.

[Sue R]

PS - That pup's eyes do not look "right" and I would not consider purchasing that pup even if everything else was suitable. Breeding for "special", "rare", "unusual", etc., colors often comes at a price in terms of health. There may be a very good reason why these sorts of candy colors were never considered desirable by the old-timers as they may well be associated with increased incidence of problems in health and other abnormalities.

 

Let me tell you a story - a man and his son came by our farm one day and stopped to chat with me as they'd seen my out with the dogs as they passed by. They were all excited about buying a pup from a backyard breeder in our county, and how special the pup was as it was mostly white with blotchy spots ("rare" color, etc.). I told them I'd not heard anything to lead me to believe that the breeder was a responsible one.

 

They stopped by a few weeks later with a very cute little bitch pup, but one that looked very likely to be the offspring of a merle/merle breeding. They were all excited about how great this pup would be.

 

And then they stopped by some months later and asked me if I wanted another dog. It seems that their pup "never listened" to them and was out of control. Was I surprised? Not at all. Double merle pups are often deaf and can also have vision problems or blindness. Was she not "listening" to them or could she not hear them? Anyway, they were disgusted with the pup (and I don't support their reaction because any problems were *their* fault and/or the breeder's fault, not *her* fault) and just wanted to be rid of her.

 

Looking back now, I wish I had taken her and gotten her vet care and into a responsible rescue if I could not have kept her. But I was not in the position at the time to be cleaning up after someone else's ignorance, someone else's irresponsible breeding, someone else's refusal to take responsibility for their own problem. And I had warned the man and his son when they first stopped by that I didn't think they were getting a pup from a good breeder, having heard about this person beforehand.

[GentleLake]

Everything Sue said.

 

There's nothing on this breeder's website that could convince me to ever entertain buying a puppy from them.

 

As has already been pointed out, sable is not merle. Different modes of inheritance. But sable merles may not be readily apparent to be merles. And merles of any color can be cryptic, or phantom, meaning simply that it's not obvious because there's so little of the merle pattern showing.

 

Another thing to consider is that with a slate blue merle you've got 2 color variations that have the potential for some genetic problems. Although I wouldn't hesitate to get a well bred merle, there is some evidence pointing to increased hearing and vision problems with just one parent being merle. And the dilutes (i.e. the "slate") can have color dilution alopecia, a genetic defect that affects hair growth and can cause skin infections. Putting the two together is, IMO, compounding risks unnecessarily in the pursuit of fancy colors.

 

My advice -- steer clear of this breeder.

[vbgrim]

Thank you all so much. You've solidified my apprehensions. I will admit that I am only toe deep in the world that is Border Collies, but I am up to my ears in instinct, and my instinct told me something may be wrong with this pup, and with this breeder.

 

Anyway if anyone has any info on a reputable breeder (which also produces merle pups) I surely would appreciate welcoming a new member to our happy family and our present BC would love another playmate (My Springer Spaniel wants little to nothing to do with her, and isn't a fan of being herded and having her ankles and ears tugged at all day)

[Sue R]

A really reputable breeder who happens to have a quality merle that he/she is breeding is a rarity. There are few quality (quality as defined here) merles but there are some who are owned by, worked by, and occasionally bred for a litter by their owners. I hope someone will help steer you in the right direction but remember also that while breeding for the purpose of producing a certain color is frowned upon, many people who do breed and may produce merle pups on occasion, may not be comfortable selling a pup to someone they do not know but that they do know is looking for a particular color. It sounds counterintuitive but a careful breeder is also a very careful seller, and would often wish to avoid a sale where they might be concerned that the buyer wanted that merle pup for all the right reasons.

 

Consider a rescue dog or pup, too. Remember that it's more important to get the "right" dog/pup than to get a particular color, which is really cosmetic compared to what's inside.

 

PS - If your current Border Collie is pestering your Springer Spaniel, you need to be the one to set the limits and intervene to be your Springer's protector and advocate, if you are not already doing so, which I hope you are. Is there a chance that what you need is not another Border Collie for a "playmate" but rather more structured activity (mental and physical) time with your current dog? Just a thought.

[Tess's Girl]

If you're specific about wanting a merle you may have better luck looking into pups that come into rescues. You have some pretty great Border Collie rescues in your part of the world.

 

There's Glen Highland Farm: http://www.glenhighlandfarm.com/

 

and New England Border Collie Rescue http://www.nebcr.org/

 

Rescues get litters of pups from time to time.

 

And of course, there's also Petfinder.com

 

As Sue mentioned, well-bred merle are really hard to find and are usually sold pretty quickly. The best way to network with the good breeders in your area is to attend or volunteer at local stockdog trails. Don't worry, you don't really have to know anything about them to volunteer. I didn't when I started volunteering at them.

 

I would also recommend not limiting your options. Have in mind what you want, but be open to seeing what's out there.

 

There's a board member who was recently on the search for a puppy, I believe she wanted a young one but she met with a breeder and ended up bringing home a 5 month old.

 

Also, when I was first looking for a BC I was looking for an 8 week old black and white or tri male. I ended up bringing home a 10mo sable female. So you never know. =)

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I would pass on this pup and check on the links above....

[Sue R]

I'm wondering if, once again, I have managed to drive someone away by being candidly honest...

[chene]

What possibly gave you that idea, Sue?

[vbgrim]

I am all about honesty. We are still keeping our eyes open for the possibility of getting another pup. When the dog and time are right, we'll know.

 

I understand the passion that BC owners/breeders/handlers have for their breed and the interest in keeping that breed "pure". There is a self-righteous vein running through much of this IMO.

 

Every breed (pure) is/was bred and selected for a certain JOB at one time long ago, but you don't see many Golden Retrievers being selectively bred or bought for their waterfowl hunting lineage. Not too many German Shepherds herding sheep that I know of...and furthermore as a percentage here in the good ole' U.S., I am going to assume that there are 10:1 BC's non-working to working..if not 100:1.

 

There is no insult to the breed when someone wants a BC as a companion, and likewise if someone wants one which looks a certain way. I have a Biology degree, so understand well the need for stringent genetic protocols, but sound breeding with sound animals can and does produce sound litters with varying colors.

 

All educated interest in the breed is good for the breed.

 

Nothing wrong with any of this.

 

I am ALL for cautioning anyone ignorant of the breed and their needs. My pup goes EVERYWHERE with me. She's kinda famous in all the establishments that allow dogs, and over time when people get to know her, I get many people asking where they can "get one" and I tell them all - "NO. You don't want a border collie...unless, etc, etc, etc" and I talk them out of it just about every time.

 

I greatly appreciate all input/info/opinions. Thanks

[kingfisher7151]

You should probably see the "Read This First" at the top of the page. That will explain the philosophy here.

 

There is nothing self-righteous about the people here. There's a passion for the breed and experience that working-bred dogs make better non-working pets than those bred for things other than what the breed is designed for. Some breeds just aren't meant to be "watered down". You don't see a Malinois chilling out on the couch acting like a Golden Retriever. The same is said for border collies. If someone wants a cute, mellow, colorful companion there are plenty of other breeds that fit the bill.

 

You can have whatever philosophy that you'd like. But know that it will not be shared with the people here.

 

(And note that I do NOT have a working dog. I have a companion dog from working parents.)

[borasaurus]

People here aren't against those who have border collies as companions. You will get a good companion dog out of a working bred litter. I think a lot of people assume working dog means work, work, work, but if anything, these dogs make the best companions because of their breeding. As an engineer, I tend to think of working border collies to be like squares. Squares are also rectangles, rhombuses, and parallelograms by definition. But not all rectangles, rhombuses, and parallelograms are squares. Working bred border collies can be companion dogs, sport dogs, or whatever you want them to be, but not the reverse.

 

I'm sure you'll get the right dog for you when the time comes. Heck, I wanted small, older, and female, but I ended up with bigger, younger, and male. I couldn't imagine it any other way though.

[B Point]

I'll admit gross ignorance. Tio was a cutesy puppy mill dog and bought on a whim and a dream of one day having my very own companion frisbee dog...... with the red bandana of course.

 

Then I found this site. Holy crap.... I had no idea and most people...ESPECIALLY in Japan where Borders are quite popular have no clue.

 

My newest pup is what I consider a rescue as no real money changed hands other than obligatory costs and who knows what would have happened to him if we didn't take him in. I did and do struggle with the fact he is yet another bred for color dog, though. But his line ends here and I'm doing my best to do my part in letting people know about how things "should be" with buying a Border Collie.

 

The next one, a few years down the road, will be from working parents...no if's or buts. I get it and I believe in it regardless if they will ever see sheep or not.