Shin Okami Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Anyone here has a Border Collie trained in Schutzhund or some of the other protection sports? I know of a handful but I wanted more input. I'm playing with the idea of going for protection sports instead as I'm more interested in that anyway than agility or flyball... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoRayBee Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Hi there, Congrats on thinking outside the box My girl just retired from her French Ring career. To the best of my knowledge she is the only FR titled BC in Canada (even if it's only a Brevet-lol,) and one of 3 or 4 in the US. Please forgive me if this sounds like I'm boasting- I don't mean to. I'm just a proud mama IMO Schutzhund is the better way to go with a border collie. There are 3 disciplines under the 'Schutzhund' umbrella to occupy their ACTIVE minds (obedience, tracking, and protection.) Also, the pressure of the bitework in Ring is so intense at higher levels that if you do not have a dog with rock solid nerves and a jaw of steel you are not going to get too far. Much as I adore border collies (and as much as I am hooked on French Ring,) they are perhaps a little bit too nervy for this sort of pressure. This is not a flame against Schutzhund, please don't get me wrong. Ring bitework is pretty awesome to watch but Schutzhund seems to be a much more disciplined and well-rounded sport. There are SchH-titled border collies out there, and you don't have to search too hard to find them. That's what I love about this breed, and I have conversations with my GSD and Malinois-owning friends....border collies can do everything THEY can, plus they can herd livestock! Ok, maybe they don't bite as hard, but that's just details, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Okami Posted April 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Heh, I think everywhere I look for info about this I end up with you. We talked privately on the Leerburg board I believe, plus somewhat on getting a Malinois here. Heheh. So there's not a lot of input from other people...? I wanted to know about the success of Border Collies in these sports in general and their potential for it. Is it just that people who own them rarely think about these sports, especially because of their reputation as having 'bad aggressive dogs'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoRayBee Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by Shin Okami: Is it just that people who own them rarely think about these sports, especially because of their reputation as having 'bad aggressive dogs'? Could be. It seems that there are a lot of stockdog folk who aren't too interested in protection sports- just as the majority of Ring people I know are not interested in sheepherding. THAT may be because they are mostly all Malinois owners but Mals can earn their own brand of herding titles, too. I think it's a case of "Jack-of-all-trades-but-master-of-none," meaning that if you decide to train your dog in a variety of sports you will not have enough time to truly specialize in one. Having a dog worthy of competing (and doing well) in any sport takes a healthy amount of time and energy (and in the case of protection sports, a fair bit of ca$h.) Barra is the first border collie I have owned, though, so I wanted to try a little bit of everything with her to see what she enjoyed most. Big surprise- herding and biting decoys. And yeah, I'm a Leerburg lurker! I could talk about this subject all darned day so I'd better stop now, lol. Keep that floor open to anyone else who might have some input into this subject...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted April 7, 2005 Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by CoRayBee:Keep that floor open to anyone else who might have some input into this subject...? No input, just a question: How did you ever get sweet Barra to bite? Bear would be on his back, begging for a tummy rub, and Wicked would just pee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Okami Posted April 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2005 Biting in dogs is just for play...at first anyway. Similar drive that makes them want to go after balls, mouth your hand, play tug with you. I didn't figure this out until WAY later, otherwise I'd have protection trained spitzes by now. (I've been trying to teach my dogs to bite in my childhood without success. But they were protective dogs. Imagine getting chased by three small white blurs if you so much as shout at me. ) Anyway, this prey drive is what you harness to eventually teach the dog to 'play tug' with a sleeve around your arm. Hence why there can be Schutzhund-trained Labs. But it's not serious protection work yet. It's more difficult to get a dog to continue biting when under pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Okami Posted April 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Hmmm...I forgot to mention this...so Border Collies would have the necessary drive, for the most part, to partake in Schutzhund? I'm pretty sure they'll dominate the tracking and obedience fields. Not a case of...such as in pit bulls or American Bulldogs or Airedales, were a high percentage isn't suitable for the task? I've always believed that if anything else, the Border Collie's famed willingness to please and love for work would enable it to overcome any barrier. A breed I originally wanted to try, instead of the Border Collie, was the Australian Cattle Dog because of its reputation for not only having high intelligence but also being a good 'guard'. But I've always loved Border Collies, and that old post in Leerburg about Barra in French Ring convinced me that if there's a will, then there's a way... ...just have to figure out how to live in the next few years with the alligator I turned my pup into. She's such a monster now. My bones/skin hurt being around her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoRayBee Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Originally posted by airbear: No input, just a question: How did you ever get sweet Barra to bite? hee hee hee....yeah, kind of tough to imagine. Believe me, Kristi, I get some wierd looks when I tell the people she is cuddled up to that she does bitework. She is just fine with the people she knows but she is also defensive and VERY protective of me and "her" house. I have no doubt that she would take matters into her own hands (paws?) if someone threatened me. It's happened before... You've hit it exactly, Shin, when you say it has to be a game. The dog must view the bitework as fun rather than life-or-death for it to be confident enough to handle the pressure. I like what you said about the protection-trained spitzes! It's true that some of the smaller breeds are also the most tenacious (it's a reeeeally good thing that Min Pins and Chihuahuas are not any bigger or the world would really be in trouble ) I am sure that the alternate breeds you mentioned can do protection work- there are Bulldogs and APBTs competing in Ring, anyway- but there's a reason that the fast, tough herding breeds (GSDs, Mals, Dutch Shepherds)excel at protection sports. They have the ideal mix of brains, courage, size, and willingness to work with a handler. That said, I am totally convinced that the 'right' border collie could compete in Schutzhund- like I've said, titled BCs are out there (there is apparently a SchH-titled BC in a club in Surrey, actually.) They have the brains and the drive, and if the proper foundation work is done they could have the strength and nerves as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted April 8, 2005 Report Share Posted April 8, 2005 Originally posted by CoRayBee:hee hee hee....yeah, kind of tough to imagine. Believe me, Kristi, I get some wierd looks when I tell the people she is cuddled up to that she does bitework. She is just fine with the people she knows but she is also defensive and VERY protective of me and "her" house. I have no doubt that she would take matters into her own hands (paws?) if someone threatened me. It's happened before... I guess I'll have to see it to believe it. Wick could do bitework if the target was covered in tennis balls, I guess. Even then, I'm pretty sure she'd just pee. WRT Schutzhund border collies, I believe Adam Flores handles one, a Keen-Eye dog, that has at least one Sch title. She's a nice dog, smooth-coat, I think he said she belongs to his boss and he runs her in agility. Speaking of Keen-Eye, did I tell you I bought a trained dog from Diana? He's a big snuggle, and just generally BIG. His name is Lou and he looks more like a Pyr than a border collie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Okami Posted April 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 Heh, it's amazing how so many breeds are looked down on in temrs of guarding ability just because the good ones existed. Those spitzes (at least the mother) was what I bought instead of a German Shepherd when I was about ten, because it was all I could afford (way back in the Philippines). She was a terribly submissive dog from the start--probably been beaten before I got her? Anything I did would send her cowering and urinating all over the floor. Then when she was less than a year old I was out with my brother and some other kids. They began to tease us because I apparently had a dumb dog. Well, that dumb dog gave one good look at them and suddenly began to bark and CHARGE them. Because we were so small, the kids took this as threat and ran off. She really became confident after that. She's still nice and friendly (heck, she licks everyone), but she did this several other times...when my cousin approached my general direction with a knife (after having pruned some trees), when my aunt left my room with some clothes, when a classmate teased me again, and when my aunt was pulling my tooth and I was screaming my head off because of the lack of anaesthetic. Her kids just take the signal and charge with her... I have her son now. He has no prey drive but has one hell of a hunt drive (he kills rats). Still, even though he doesn't look like it, he's snarled several times when not-so-trusting-looking people have approached us or the house. The rest of the times he's pretty lax and has a 'don't care' attitude. It's the spitzes that made me look at alternative breeds for protection work in the first place. If they had the spirit for it (if not the size, bite, etc.), then a LOT of other breeds probably can do it. It just needs a bit of time, patience, and the right understanding of the mechanics of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoRayBee Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 Originally posted by Shin Okami: It's the spitzes that made me look at alternative breeds for protection work in the first place. If they had the spirit for it (if not the size, bite, etc.) Hah! Who says you can't just pick you dog up and toss it at the helper instead? Neat story about alternate breeds- The last FR trial I was at was in Portland, Oregon. One entry was a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, 9 years old, belonging to a member of the host club. As it turns out, she had lost this particular dog many years ago and had given up hope long ago of ever getting it back, when it turned up shortly before the trial. She came out, went through the Brevet exercises, and this little dog was the highlight of the weekend. (Picture a 10 inch tall, 20 lb dog biting decoys in the crotch!!!) They didn't pass unfortunately but I don't think anyone really remembers that part. So...yay for alternate breeds. And Kristi- yay for you and your new kid!! Actually, I think one of the dogs I had heard of with SchH titles WAS a Keen Eye dog. A Teag daughter, I believe. You wouldn't happen to know where Adam (or his boss) trains, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcodog Posted April 9, 2005 Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 I was at a school about 2 years ago and there was a trainer with his BC doing bite work with him. I have seen alot of BCs that certainly have the drive for Schutzund but not necessarily the size. Fiona certainly has the drive for it. She has stepped between me and more than a few suspects getting hinky with me. Her eye has backed down most of them. Fiona does not do any bite work and I will not train her for it but only because of her size. 36lbs and fine boned, she would definitely get hurt too easily. I realize the difference between sport and street work but Schutzhund can still be very rough. Try and find a BC with a heavy bone structure and a good attitude you will do fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Okami Posted April 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2005 I've heard some Jack Russells do it as well? Heheh. I'd love to have a Staffie, but they look so much like pit bulls and their reputation that it's just bad news being seen teaching one how to bite--plus I don't know any working breeders around (the show ones look like...well, you know). Not really planning at the moment to pursue any serious work with Cheza, probably only go as far as to join a club. Still, if her weight is a bit on the low side, couldn't I always build her muscle? My spitz Riley is 25 pounds and built like a tank. You can literally see the muscles bunching up under his spitz coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoRayBee Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 Originally posted by narcodog: I have seen alot of BCs that certainly have the drive for Schutzund but not necessarily the size. Fiona certainly has the drive for it. Fiona does not do any bite work and I will not train her for it but only because of her size. 36lbs and fine boned, she would definitely get hurt too easily. My girl was 35lbs when she was trialing. As far as getting hurt, it is the decoy's job to see that the dog does not get injured. There are proper ways to absorb a dog coming at you for a bite, and the batons used are strictly for cinema as opposed to causing any pain. Injuries will happen, of course, but the only ones in our club who got injured were the ones IN the bite suits! Oh, the beautiful bruises.... One of the things I would concentrate on (besides confidence) is building neck and jaw strength. Full mouth grips are HIGHLY desirable in Schutzhund. ...and I like "hinky." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinKate Posted April 10, 2005 Report Share Posted April 10, 2005 Hey Shin my mom and sister's JRTs do attack training. They send them out in a group as well as individuals. Funny thing is, they all have their own style. One runs up the front, aiming for the face/throat, one goes for the groin, the other two go for limbs. lol Imagine being the sleeve man with them coming at you! Each one also does school demos. They love the kiddies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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