Cedzz Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Okay first question is something that is really bothering me. Duke is giving me the cold shoulder, bad. For the last few days he just doesn't want to play, when I call him he just looks at me like "what?" And stays where he is, unless I have food. He isn't lethargic, he is eating alright, running around and playing, just not with me. He is even following me around like usual, just pretending he isn't by staying an extra few steps away and stopping on the otherwise of the room. He can be pretty sensitive at times, but nothing has changed, I haven't scolded him, or anything that usually ticks him off, the only thing I can think of is that last Tuesday we had an inspection as we are in a rental and technically while we are allowed to have a dog, he isn't meant to be in the house, so he was outside all day BUT I sat outside all day with him so he wouldn't feel like he is being punished. Anyone else been given the cold shoulder? Anything I can do to brige the rift? Second question, nothing major just want some tips, Duke takes to tricks very fast, but I cannot get him to shake hands, I've been trying since he was a pup. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 How old is Duke? Dogs do definitely go through different stages in their development and they may spend certain stages being more or less interested in their owner, and more or less independent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 How are you working shake? Have you tried shaping? Some tricks are just easier for some dogs. Like, I have a handstand, all sorts of fun flips and stuff but I can't get my dog to offer up a "be shy" trick without props. I'm not a terrible trainer, it's just not clicking the way other tricks have. Try something else. Maybe something like a paw target to get him thinking about his feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedzz Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 How old is Duke? Dogs do definitely go through different stages in their development and they may spend certain stages being more or less interested in their owner, and more or less independent. He is 17 months, but he has always been a mummy's boy. I miss my boy. We spend hours a day playing most days, this last week since Tuesday, he just hasn't been interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedzz Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 How are you working shake? Have you tried shaping? Some tricks are just easier for some dogs. Like, I have a handstand, all sorts of fun flips and stuff but I can't get my dog to offer up a "be shy" trick without props. I'm not a terrible trainer, it's just not clicking the way other tricks have. Try something else. Maybe something like a paw target to get him thinking about his feet. What is Shaping? I have tried holding his paw and shaking it while saying 'Shake'. Also, I tried placing a treat in one hand to see if he would paw it and then give him the treat from the other hand, but he won't paw it because he knows he has to leave the treat and wait patiently until I have given him the treat as that's how he was taught to "leave". As for paw target. When he was a pup I washed his paws every time he came back inside the house because he always came back in with muddy paws. Now he is always making sure he has clean paws. He can be muddy and dirty all over and still have shiny clean white paws. So when I try bring attention to his paws, he thinks we have to clean them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d112358 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Shaping means you break the behavior down into little steps and mark/reward those steps systematically, resulting in closer and closer approximations to the finished behavior. For shake I usually start with luring/shaping a 'pick up your paw'. Easy to lure if you put the dog in a sit and pull his nose off-balance with a treat. From there the next steps are duration of paw lift then moving a paw towards my hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedzz Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I always do his training in small steps the problem is that he just learnt "leave" so well that when I'm holding a treat he will sit until I've given him the treat, he won't follow the treat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedzz Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Although I'm thinking if I start with 'sit' then move into 'leave', then he knows a 'good boy' means he can have the treat, maybe if I then move the treat he will follow. I will try this with him tonight with some raw beef mince. Sometimes the simple things flee your mind. Thanks for getting me thinking! I will see how we go and let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Google "free shaping" and read up on it/watch some videos. It's a wonderful tool to achieve some pretty awesome tricks. Look into clicker training too -- it can be closely related to shaping. You don't really want to place his paw in your hand - the goal is for him to place it there himself, so it's good to work on him targeting your hand from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camden's Mom Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Cedzz, I tried to teach "shake" the same way you are doing before I learned about shaping. Shaping is *awesome* it really makes the dog think and my boy gets more tired out when I'm shaping a trick then when I'm luring him into a trick. Once we started shaping "shake" he was still confused as to what I wanted from him. I don't know if this is technically cheating in the shape training world, but I would give him a little hint by just tapping his front leg. I'd put him in a sit and have my hand held out for him to place his paw in. If he looked at me completely confused I'd just lightly tap his front leg with one finger. Then I'd put my open hand back out again. It was sorta' a clue for him that I wanted him to do something with that leg. Funny enough, this actually translated to a leg lift for us. I can gently tap any one of his legs and say "lift" and he knows I want him to pick that leg up. It's good for cleaning off mussy paws and doing pad inspections. Dunno if this will help with your boy but figured I'd share what I did with mine. ETA: As for the sudden behavior change, I don't know that you need to worry too much if he's still active, playing, eating and otherwise seems healthy and normal. It might just be a phase he's going through (darn those teenagers!) or something might have triggered this response in him that you are not aware of. I've heard of border collies that have practically shut down because a grocery bag blew by the window... they are strange and unpredictable creatures. I'd just keep up your normal routine and continue to monitor his overall health in the meantime. Disclaimer: I'm no expert (not even close) so if other give different advice regarding the behavior change I'd trust theirs over mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I taught my 11 month old shake by saying the word while simultaneously picking up her paw with one hand, treat at the ready in the other hand. She got the treat and praise each time I picked up her paw. Within 10 or so repetitions she started lifting her paw in anticipation of me picking it up. In a few more reps, she was offering her paw when I said "shake" (happy voice) and holding out my hand. I'm still rewarding her with a treat, but will start making those intermittent. I accomished this in three short (<5 min) sessions over maybe three evenings. No special science-- just showed her what I wanted, reinforced with treats/praise, and voila! That said, when I tried to teach Pip, I gave up because he just wasn't getting it and I didn't have time to dedicate. Then about the time he was 2, he suddenly figured out what I wanted (I'd occasionally revisit the request). So sometimes it may just take a while for the light bulb to turn on. ;-) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedzz Posted March 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Well I tried the approach I mentioned above and still no luck, not even close. A had some left over roast chicken I was using as he's treat and still he just looked at it while I moved it away from his nose for him to follow like it was just being mean and teasing him. I find it difficult to train him things he doesn't just pick up because he just doesn't care about treats, and I have been creative with what I use. Sekah, I think i will do some research and see how we go. Camden's Mum, he will lift his legs for me, let's me clean them and inspect them, he is good like that, whether it be his mouth, his ears, his tail, his eyes. He is very anal about having clean paws as I mentioned earlier so I bring attention to his paws, they must be getting cleaned! Kinda kills the whole "shake" thing. As for his behaviour, he is still standoffish with me, but when he was tried last night he did jump on the bed for 20 mins to cuddle before lights went out and he went to bed. Progress! Juliepoudrier, I have attempted that approach and he just doesn't get that he was being treated because I had his paw. I get what you mean about l it may just take a while for the light bulb to turn on. Thank you all for your suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 ...As for paw target. When he was a pup I washed his paws every time he came back inside the house because he always came back in with muddy paws. Now he is always making sure he has clean paws. He can be muddy and dirty all over and still have shiny clean white paws. So when I try bring attention to his paws, he thinks we have to clean them. Could Duke have had an early negative experience with muddy paw wiping? Does he avoid sitting still directly to your front in anticipation of the dreaded paw cleaning? Some dogs are highly sensitive, so the questions have nothing to do with fault. If that is the case, training a paw-shake will involve tons of positive reinforcement. In order to settle him down for training, you may have to teach several preparatory tricks with him to your front, prior to teaching a shake. I'm guessing the weather is getting wetter/muddier there as you go into Fall. Is there some other way to clean his paws for now, for instance, having him pass through a large, shallow basin of water similar to a cookie sheet, and lots of absorbent material to walk-on, before coming in the house? When he is sitting to your front reasonably well, try to make it a game, using an extremely upbeat tone of voice, and tons of treats. Laugh and smile. Maybe he would like a game of tug, or ball-fetch as a reward. Make sessions short, but several times/day. The above technique suggestions are good. Don't get hung-up on one exclusive method. If one way does not seem to be successful, use your intuition and modify it a little. Duke will tell you what is working. He will get it. -- TEC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d112358 Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Well I tried the approach I mentioned above and still no luck, not even close. A had some left over roast chicken I was using as he's treat and still he just looked at it while I moved it away from his nose for him to follow like it was just being mean and teasing him. I find it difficult to train him things he doesn't just pick up because he just doesn't care about treats, and I have been creative with what I use. Have you ever played 101 things to do with a box? It may be easier to get him thinking and offering behaviors if you're not luring and you can reward almost anything rather than holding out for a weight shift or paw lift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I used the "luring off balance" thing to teach Gem, if your dog won't follow the treat then teach him to follow a target then use that to lure him off balance. Or teach him to "target" with his paw,so say put a lid on the ground and try to get him to walk on it, c/t as soon as his foot hits it, once he get "foot on lid" start moving the lid around still on the floor, eventually lifting the lid slightly higher till you can place it on your hand, you should then be able to fade the target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Borders Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 He'll revert to leave it with a treat in hand, but what about under a cup or napkin? Start with tossing the treat on the floor, say "find it." Then encourage him to "find it" under the napkin or cup. Jackpot if he uses a paw to get to it. Then hold your hand, cupped but upside down, over the treat, and cue him to find it. Jackpot for any touch of his paw to your hand. Then flip your hand over and do it with your hand on the floor but palm up. Then lift your hand off the floor. ?? He didn't get into anything that would make him ill or sore outside, did he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedzz Posted April 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Could Duke have had an early negative experience with muddy paw wiping? Does he avoid sitting still directly to your front in anticipation of the dreaded paw cleaning? Some dogs are highly sensitive, so the questions have nothing to do with fault. If that is the case, training a paw-shake will involve tons of positive reinforcement. In order to settle him down for training, you may have to teach several preparatory tricks with him to your front, prior to teaching a shake. I'm guessing the weather is getting wetter/muddier there as you go into Fall. Is there some other way to clean his paws for now, for instance, having him pass through a large, shallow basin of water similar to a cookie sheet, and lots of absorbent material to walk-on, before coming in the house? When he is sitting to your front reasonably well, try to make it a game, using an extremely upbeat tone of voice, and tons of treats. Laugh and smile. Maybe he would like a game of tug, or ball-fetch as a reward. Make sessions short, but several times/day. The above technique suggestions are good. Don't get hung-up on one exclusive method. If one way does not seem to be successful, use your intuition and modify it a little. Duke will tell you what is working. He will get it. -- TEC He actually likes when I wipe his paws. He got lots of positive reinforcement as a pup and we turned it into a little game when we cleaned them so now he likes it. He doesn't avoid it at all, when his paws are dirty and he sees me with a wash cloth, he sits in front of me with his tail wagging and let's me wipe then jumps up for a cuddle and the ear scratch he knows is coming. It's not so much the weather that dirtys his paws. He likes playing in his water bowl then running around on dirt. It's an all year round thing. I am trying many techniques, and will continue to try until something works for us, everything with Duke is a game, I don't think it is possible to not speak with him in an upbeat tone and smile when you look at his gorgeous face. With that said, treats aren't all that interesting and balls don't phase him at all. He only likes to tug a war with HIS stuffed raccoon and bear, which usually leads to him getting side tracked with them completely, so playing with him usually consists of chasing each other around the house and play wrestling with him. He would do anything for a good tummy rub, so I try give him that as a reward as well as a nice treat of meat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedzz Posted April 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 Have you ever played 101 things to do with a box? It may be easier to get him thinking and offering behaviors if you're not luring and you can reward almost anything rather than holding out for a weight shift or paw lift. I haven't but I just looked it up and think I will try this too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedzz Posted April 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 He'll revert to leave it with a treat in hand, but what about under a cup or napkin? Start with tossing the treat on the floor, say "find it." Then encourage him to "find it" under the napkin or cup. Jackpot if he uses a paw to get to it. Then hold your hand, cupped but upside down, over the treat, and cue him to find it. Jackpot for any touch of his paw to your hand. Then flip your hand over and do it with your hand on the floor but palm up. Then lift your hand off the floor. ?? He didn't get into anything that would make him ill or sore outside, did he? Another great technique. thanks No, he isn't unwell or sore, I've made sure on that, and also have him a bath in case he was uncomfortable. Today he is slowly coming back up to me more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedzz Posted April 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 I used the "luring off balance" thing to teach Gem, if your dog won't follow the treat then teach him to follow a target then use that to lure him off balance. Or teach him to "target" with his paw,so say put a lid on the ground and try to get him to walk on it, c/t as soon as his foot hits it, once he get "foot on lid" start moving the lid around still on the floor, eventually lifting the lid slightly higher till you can place it on your hand, you should then be able to fade the target. I will try this too. Thank you everyone for giving me some more techniques so use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCjetta Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 With one of my dogs I used the clicker and shaping. First I clicked for her shifting weight off the paw I wanted. I did that by tickling/touching just below/around the carpal pad to make her move her foot. After a while she started shifting her weight off that paw when she saw my hand coming close, then started offering it, then progressed to paw off the ground and it turned into a nice wave which is what I was working towards. My first dog I did the pick up the foot and say shake and give a treat and that worked with her. My aussie I got frustrated with because he was too obsessed with the fact that I had treats on me somewhere to focus on anything else and my young border collie I havent tried it yet. As for him avoiding you - I bet something is bothering him. My aussie is "sensitive" and hubby closed the bathroom door loudly close to him and for 3 months after that every time hubby went into the bathroom Turbo would come and hide under my desk (he's hubby's dog and never usually comes to my area). Another example is he misjudged when jumping up into the back of my SUV and fell back out. For a month or so after that he was scared of jumping in (to the point of looking away/avoidance/cowering) if I was on the right side of him because that was the side I was on when he fell and he associated me with what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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