'lacks confidence' - what does i mean in a herding/training context and how to overcome it?

[loggerboots]

Hi BC Folks,

 

I plan on applying for our local volunteer canine SAR team next spring. I acquired a BC from working lines (Emmie) who I hope will train with me (she was acquired as a companion animal, but I’ve wanted to do SAR for years, and that desire influenced my decision to get a working bred BC). She’s about 20 months old and a sweet, sweet dog, very affectionate and focused on us . She has a reputation of lacking ‘confidence’, however, and that’s what my question is about – I guess I don’t really understand how a lack of confidence manifests in dogs. What is ‘confidence’ in relation to dog training and what can I do to improve it in my dog before spring rolls round?

 

A little background, I adopted Emmie from someone who used dogs to move cattle. I wouldn’t say she’s a rancher, they seemed more like shepherds if there is still such a thing, hired to move around someone elses cattle. She was bred by a cattle rancher from working parents and some of her ancestors were apparently good herding dogs. ‘On Paper’, she should have been really good at her job, but according to the lady I adopted her from, she was not. She described Emmie as "lacking confidence" and this caused her to fail to work the cattle as they needed. From her description, Emmie would charge in and bite the stock (out of fear). I find this hard to envision because she’s so sweet, but that’s what she said .

 

My plan to build her confidence is to find a dog activity to participate with her. I’m taking her to a local herding trainer this weekend to start her on sheep (I don’t know if she worked sheep before or if it was just cattle). I’m not sure this is the best idea, as the previous owner said that herding was stressful for her and that she’d prefer not to herd, but I want to give it a try nonetheless. The trainer assured me that no matter what Emmie does in the pen, she will have a positive experience. The trainer is a member of this board and seems to be held in high regard, so I’m hopeful it will go well. If it does, this will be her activity until SAR training comes around next year. If not, plan B is agility.

 

The other thing we’re doing is getting her out and into a lot of new situations – meeting lots of people and animals and such. I’m not sure this is the best approach as she is cautious and seems skittish around new people. She does warm to strangers fairly quickly, it took us probably 15-20 minutes to earn her trust, but she was even wary of us when we first met.

 

Is this the right approach to help a dog that lacks confidence? Are there other things to try? I’m hoping that if she has some success at herding (or something else), she’ll be in better shape when I go out for SAR in the spring. Then again, I’m not really sure I understand exactly what ‘confidence’ is in relation to herding. I have owned dogs before, but do not have much experience with formal dog trianing, so pretty ignorant in that regard.

 

Anyway, any comments to help me understand and overcome confidence issues in relation to dog training would be appreciated! Thanks

 

ETA: One other thing, I’m also a little suspicious that her senses might be a little off as she seems to have a little trouble locating the source of sounds and she’s surprisingly bad at hide and seek, sometimes walking right by us while we’re hiding in the open, so a vision or hearing problem is also a possibility, I think, and someone has pointed out that dogs with sensory issues are sometimes labeled as lacking confidence.

[juliepoudrier]

The board members I know of from your neck of the woods are all folks I would trust to start working with a dog right. Sheep are far less intimidating than cattle, and besides that, it's possible that her temperament/learniing style just didn't mesh well with her original owner's, hence her lack of confidence and seeming lack of desire to work.

 

It may be early days yet with you to expect much, given that she really hasn't had a lot of time to bond with you, but if she's got any talent and your trainer takes a less is more approach (that is, lets her work without too much interference at the start), you might be pleasantly surprised. If she blooms through stockwork, you still shouldn't expect her to become a super confident dog if it's not in her nature, but with the right training (the sort that doesn't make her feel too pressured/stressed), you might also find you have a little gem on your hands.

 

I know of a dog who is completely unconfident and really isn't terribly inclined to work. He has close relatives who are great workers. In this dog's case, I am convinced it was a poor match between owner and dog and if the dog had gone to someone different he might have turned out completely different.

 

The catch is that she's already had a set of experiences that will now need to be overcome. That's not to say it can't be done, but it may take a little longer, and if she's developed a habit of quittng because she couldn't take the pressure at her old home, then that behavior is likely going to be a default behavior that you will have to work around.

 

But it's certainly worth a try.

 

If you really are concerned about her sight and hearing, I'd suggest getting a BAER test and having her eyes checked. Neither is expensive; the only catch will be whether you can find someone in your vicinity to administer a BAER test. Frankly, if you want to work her on stock, it would be well worth the money, because if later she blows off commands and you know she has a hearing problem, for example, then you won't be so quick to label it as disobedience rather than physical limitations.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

Hi there!

One thing I would point out is that "lack of confidence" on livestock - especially cattle - does NOT mean the dog lacks confidence in other ways. The sort of grit and courage required for a dog to effectively move cattle is very different from the sort of everyday confidence a dog might otherwise have. I've known dogs who were utterly incapable of (and unwilling to even try) moving cattle - but they were completely self confident in every other aspect of their lives.

So, the fact your girl failed as a cow dog and was afraid of cows does NOT mean she would be fearful or lack courage in anything else.

Lack of confidence in working cows simply means the dog was not able to stand up to cows when they faced her off or otherwise offered resistance. Cattle are big, heavy, opinionated and sometimes downright confrontational, and can require a lot more pursuasion than the average sheep. Cow work requires a sort of physical courage that not every dog has - even if they are fine working sheep.

Since you don't have cows, you may never see that lack of confidence manifested. Her usefulness as an SAR dog is not necessarily related to the sort of confidence required to move cattle. So, I'd say just keep doing what you're doing, get her out and around, make sure she has positive experiences, and support her if she shows shyness or fearfulness around new things/people. When you take her to sheep, listen to what your instructor says and take their evaluation of her as in her best interests. She may love sheep! They're certainly not as big and scary as cows.

Regarding the sensory issues, definitely get her tested and vet checked. If there is an issue, that could be behind any apparent confidence issues. Best of luck, and let us know how her herding test goes!
Cheers ~

Gloria

 

 

 

Hi BC Folks,

 

I plan on applying for our local volunteer canine SAR team next spring. I acquired a BC from working lines (Emmie) who I hope will train with me (she was acquired as a companion animal, but I’ve wanted to do SAR for years, and that desire influenced my decision to get a working bred BC). She’s about 20 months old and a sweet, sweet dog, very affectionate and focused on us . She has a reputation of lacking ‘confidence’, however, and that’s what my question is about – I guess I don’t really understand how a lack of confidence manifests in dogs. What is ‘confidence’ in relation to dog training and what can I do to improve it in my dog before spring rolls round?

 

.......... ‘On Paper’, she should have been really good at her job, but according to the lady I adopted her from, she was not. She described Emmie as "lacking confidence" and this caused her to fail to work the cattle as they needed. From her description, Emmie would charge in and bite the stock (out of fear). I find this hard to envision because she’s so sweet, but that’s what she said .....................

 

ETA: One other thing, I’m also a little suspicious that her senses might be a little off as she seems to have a little trouble locating the source of sounds and she’s surprisingly bad at hide and seek, sometimes walking right by us while we’re hiding in the open, so a vision or hearing problem is also a possibility, I think, and someone has pointed out that dogs with sensory issues are sometimes labeled as lacking confidence.

[gcv-border]

Two very good answers above ^^^

 

I agree with Gloria that 'lacking confidence' as defined by one owner for one activity (herding cattle) doesn't necessarily mean that Emmie is 'lacking confidence' in other areas of her life. The more positive experiences she has - not only in formal training, but also in everyday life - the more she should gain confidence.

 

With regard to Plan B (agility) - many dogs do gain confidence by participating in agility, but the training should be done 'right'. It should be about fun and running (all dogs love to run), not about obedience or drilling. Not all dogs gain confidence from agility, but from what I have observed, that is primarily due to training styles. Being too heavy-handed and rigid takes the fun out of it (probably true whether training for agility or another sport or skill). I have seen what I consider unconfident dogs running agility, but they are primarily just trying to be 'right' for their owner.

 

I have a friend in SAR, and have learned a lot in conversations with him. His group uses mainly air-scent and cadaver dogs. Since most SAR work involves scent detection, mild visual or hearing problems shouldn't be a problem. It would be helpful if she loved people since, as an air-scent dog, her reward will not only be a ball, but also lots of petting and playing with the 'victim' (during training exercises). Most air-scent dogs can't wait to find the subject since it involves playtime and loving.

 

Good Luck,

Jovi

[loggerboots]

Thanks for the replies, folks!

 

I did take her out for her instinct test/lesson this morning. Confidence was definitely an issue, but I think she did ok given her background and temperament.

I wrote a really long post in the general forum if you're curious about the details, but it went pretty much as expected. She definitely has instinct and interest in controlling the sheep, but lacks the confidence to really take control of them, and sometimes is a little hard on them when they don't do what she wants them to.

 

We're going to continue for a few more lessons to see if she starts relaxing and gaining confidence. One thing, she had FUN and it was really cool to see her interact with the stock and the other border collies!