training using food

[oisin10708]

Hi,

I trained my now 3 year old bc using food treats (obedience, agiity). He is now an intense food-monger, constantly on the lookout for grub (and often finding it under bushes - he's extrordinarily good at finding bits that other dogs just pass by). I wonder have I turned that intensity from herding -wish and chasing etc into an intense food thing?

He does'nt look for it when herding (except rarely when he's in a funk over being chased out from the sheep, then he looks at their droppings).

I have an 8 month old bc for the past 3 days and he's learned sit and down for approval and pets. We hope to do obedience and agility with him too and I wonder should I aim to do it without treats if I can.

 

Thanks,

Catherine, NY

[Pam Wolf]

Generally the reason for a dog being a 'food-monger' when trained with treats is the failure to follow thru to the point of the dog earning the reward from the simple pleasure of doing the job well. This means a failure to transfer the reward to praise or other reward. Check out some of the better clicker sites, because if food is used properly the same principals apply as in clicker training. I suggest Karen Pryor.

 

Pam

[airbear]

"I have an 8 month old bc for the past 3 days and he's learned sit and down for approval and pets. We hope to do obedience and agility with him too and I wonder should I aim to do it without treats if I can."

 

My 18 month old rescue BC is a food hound but she also is intensely motivated by, well, being asked to do anything. In agility and flyball, rather than using food to shape behaviours (she is clicker-trained), her rewards are tugging, praise or being allowed to take the next obstacle. Of course, this is a dog for whom the greatest reward is running, so your mileage may vary.

 

For obedience, though, I find that food rewards work better because (a) tugging on the leash is frowned upon by the obedience folks and (b)bringing out a ball causes her to glaze over.

 

I don't know if this (food) is causing her to 'lose' her herding intensity since she is an absolute wash-out on sheep.

 

Kristi

[SoloRiver]

I think you're mixing up the chicken and the egg. Your dog really likes food, meaning he is food-motivated, which is why food is useful for training him. Most likely he would still be into food regardless of whether or not you used food to train him. The only way training with food could possibly have produced the behavior you're seeing is if you routinely scatter food under bushes and the like while training with it but I think you probably don't do that.

 

I would look at this as an opportunity and motivation to train a "leave it" and a "watch me" -- both of which you can train using food, or whatever reward your dog is most jazzed by. Food is a nice reward because it's easy to carry and to deliver and works with most dogs, but if your dog will work for a game of tug or the like that is fine too. It's really a matter of seeing what revs your dog's motor the most.

 

I don't see how training off stock using treats could rob a dog of herding intensity -- that makes no sense whatsoever. I don't even see how it would be possible to take a keen dog and convert it so that it would rather work for food than sheep in a herding context. If it even were possible, it would take so much effort, in fact, that there's pretty much no way you could do it by accident. If you've ever tried to train a dog to work for a different motivator you know it takes some effort.

 

I have two dogs -- one is a rescued dog and the other is an imported trained sheepdog. Before she came to live with me, she lived the life of a true working sheepdog and I am willing to bet substantial sums of money that she was never trained to do stupid pet tricks for food. However, she is the MOST food-motivated dog I have ever seen, hands down. She is a total pig. She also scavenges for food on walks -- little old ladies around here like to leave bread crumbs and birdseed around for pigeons and stuff like that and those crumbs are NOT safe if Fly is anywhere nearby. She eats faster than any dog I've ever seen. She was like this from day one. Since I've gotten her, I have started training her in basic obedience (not competition obedience, but housepet manners) using food and it has not dampened her ardor for sheep one bit.

 

Leave the treats at home while you're training on sheep (your dog wouldn't look at them anyway if there are sheep around) but if they work, why not use them the rest of the time? I'd read up about reward schedules and the differences between rewards and bribes to use food treats to the best effect.

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and The Fly

[Pam Wolf]

Food for many dogs is an 'intrinsic' reward. Sheep for many BC's is also an intrinsic reward. This makes the reward meaningful for the dog. Any reward which is innately rewarding to the dog can work.

 

As for the use of food making the dog disinterested in sheep, it is doubtful. Having trained several breeds for herding, I find that food used when training for 'other' sports usually does not hinder the dog for sheep in any way. However, adversive training methods usually causes disinterest or rather the dog afraid to go for the stock since, in the dog's mind not paying full attention to the handler will cause him 'pain'.

 

That said, I tried using food on a couple of 'other' breeds when training for sheep. Both dogs would work for the food on sheep, however they did not learn the commands in relation to the sheep, but in relation to me. One dog learned the down so well she would ONLY down when she saw the sheep It took longer to get these dogs to see that working the sheep was the reward. IOW I had to 'make' the sheep an intrinsic reward for these dogs. I have tried using food for the stop on sheep with a couple of BC's for giggles. Only dogs which were not interested in the sheep would even look at the food.

 

Pam

[oisin10708]

Thanks for the replies.

I find it particularly interesting that a dog trained for herding and without other treat-based training can still be a food-monger.

I also have to run the gauntlet of little-old-ladies (and men) leaving bread, pretzels, baegels and event prok chops around the park - maybe that's behind it.

"Leave-it" is said A LOT but I can't always predict when he's ready to pounce. I've had my hand down his throath on more than one occasion.

 

I did'nt mean he is desensitized to sheep by food - he is not.

It's just difficult to move on to praise type rewards during agility training which I would like to do for speed. This dog started by getting a treat for each new obstacle performed. Then when chaining came in and moved on to one treat for say 4 obstacles performed, he would poke me repeatedly for more treats - I get the impression he was keeping score.

I got to do a whole run eventually by placing the treats on a table to be got at the end and gradually fading the number of treats (not getting 18 treats any more!).

I don't like tugging - he is 50 lbs and it would take the arm off me. Ball-throwing would be great but rarely practical in our class. I suppose I have to practice enthusiastic cheering - 18 treats worth of it .

 

Catherine, NY

[airbear]

"It's just difficult to move on to praise type rewards during agility training which I would like to do for speed...I got to do a whole run eventually by placing the treats on a table to be got at the end..."

That's exactly the mistake I made with my big dog. He never found anything intrinsically rewarding about agility because I kept ramming food down his throat. We are switching to play-based rewards and he is running much better. Example: if I put food at the end of the DW, he takes about 6 seconds to cross it. If I put Mr. Tuggy at the end of the DW, it's closer to 4 seconds (running contacts on both).

 

At our last trial, all of his rewards were play-based and although he's still not very fast, he seemed to be having more fun.

 

I think the important thing is to reward the behaviour you want and ignore the ones you don't. With Bear, a slow trot across the DW gets no reinforcement. No cheerleading, no clapping, nothing. If he picks up the pace, that's when he gets verbal praise (and the tug toy at the end).

 

"I don't like tugging - he is 50 lbs and it would take the arm off me."

Bear is 56lbs and I'm 100 lbs, but tugging is what gets him most revved so I just hold on for dear life.

 

Kristi

[Tassie]

My BCs, past and present have been serious chow-hounds. I can relate to the hand down the throat bit if I?ve been too slow with the ?Leave it? (except with my little girl, it?s usually to retrieve native animal poo ? she?s an addict!) I use food (then gradually phasing out) for obedience, because play gets them too hyper to listen (although I did bring in play to help my old Sam with the scent discrimination in Utility ? to build up his confidence.) But I used tugging on a ring toy with Sam as his end reward in tracking ? it was the only time I played tug of war with him, and he was always allowed to win, so it was a huge motivator ? and it could be thrown as well. Plus in training, when I was laying the track myself, which was nearly always, I could just leave the toy on the ground, so that he was always tracking for his toy, which made switching to unknown tracklayer easier.

 

With the pups, the little bit of puppy agility I?ve done was with trainers who use a different method of training ? teaching the dog to go out rather than running beside, and they use toys with most dogs, and activate the play/prey drive. The handler is at the end of a sequence of obstacles, and has the toy there ready for the dog as it completes the sequence. They also teach the end of the contact obstacles first, and that?s where the reward is, so the dogs hurry over the obstacles to get to that spot.

 

 

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Barb

[SoloRiver]

My Solo learned the obstacles using food rewards but once he learned them he very quickly came to find them inherently rewarding. I use most of my training treats to reward quiet behavior between runs and pretty much never pull them out for actual agility anymore.

 

Solo enjoys running, jumping, quick physical movements because those are the types of games we tend to play -- does your dog enjoy this? When I can I use a thrown ball for a reward when working on problem obstacles (like weaves). I've also developed his love for tug and can use this as a reward also. For the record, I weigh 95 pounds and Solo weighs 45. It's not that hard to tug with him. I don't know anyone besides people with actual disabilities who can't tug with their dogs. He won't pull your arm off. Give it a try -- just be sure to train a "give" or "out" command at the same time!

 

Have you tried the 1-2-3 game? (Susan Garrett, I think.) It's basically like this: you ask the dog for a stand or stay, and then rev him up but don't allow him to go until you give the release. I might put Solo in a down-stay and say, "Ready... ready... ready... GO!" and use body language that makes him very excited and wanting to run. When I say "GO!" I throw the ball (only if he stayed, of course) and normally this results in an explosion of speed off the line. After he became practiced at this the enthusiasm transferred from getting to chase the ball to just getting to explode off the line. You can then transform this love of exploding off the line to enthusiasm for the next obstacle, especially when going from a contact obstacle to something like a jump or tunnel which most dogs tend to really like doing.

 

Does that make any sense?

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and Superfly