Running Fences, Attacking

[olivehill]

My young dog (10mo) has taken to running fences when he thinks he can get away with it. IOW, whenever I get busy with the task at hand, he gets bored waiting at the gate, and can steal away for a second. He'll run over to a choice pen (he seems to have favorites) run along it and if someone is nearby try to nip/grip them through the fence. Obviously, it's a bad habit that only begets more bad habits and not one I'd like him continuing. I haven't had a chance to get us back to the trainer since November so haven't had an opportunity to ask her opinion. (Though hope to have time in a couple weeks for another lesson and will certainly bring it up.)

 

My thought is that he simply needs to go back on lead for a bit, and I can just clip him to fence posts as I go around and do chores, but I wanted to run that plan by the experts.

 

He does knock it off if I tell him so (at least for a bit) and his recall is still great. If I notice him thinking of it I give him a quick "Ahhht! Here." And he comes right back to where he's supposed to be. This works most of the time, but depending on what I'm doing with chores I can't always have one eye on him and occasionally miss it. That lack of consistency isn't going to get us anywhere, which is why I was thinking just put him back on lead.

 

Is there any other way you'd all suggest going about it instead? Am I right in assuming (hoping?) he'll mature out of this as he gets some more work and training on stock under his belt so he'll eventually be able to be off lead?

 

Also, I'm wondering if it's possible this is the result of frustration? I've noticed his "favorite" pens to do this with are those that contain mature animals and/or those that don't tend to "respect" his presence at the fence line as much. He doesn't do it to young stock or those that easily move away from his presence, it's just those that tend to ignore him. In hindsight I'm wondering if perhaps I should not have allowed him to be near those fences while doing chores? If he's escalating his pressure on them in an attempt to command respect? Or am I just reading too much into it? Or am not reading too much, but am off base?

[Gloria Atwater]

If he's bothering livestock through a fence, that is not acceptable.

 

If it were me, I'd make it the biggest no-no of his life. NO dog should be allowed to harass livestock through a fence, and it could even aggravate an animal (especially if it were a ram or a ewe with a lamb, or a cow) to charge and hit the fence. I'd keep him away from there, or else make it such a BIG correction that he thinks running the fence calls down the wrath of doG.

 

In my view, it's just an ugly, ugly thing to get into and no, they're not apt to out-grow it on their own. It's a self-gratifying behavior.

 

The dog's reason for it doesn't matter. There's no over-thinking for you to do. He needs to learn that it's a big, fat mistake and not to be tolerated. Depending on the livestock involved, it could get him hurt, or get the animals hurt should they decide to lash back at him through the fence.

 

Leash him, if that helps. If he's loose, make the corrections LOUD and major - plastic water bottles with pennies or pebbles in them make a great noise deterrent - and restrict his access to livestock if you can't watch him.

 

Wishing you luck!

 

~ Gloria

P.S.

Chasing livestock through a fence could get him in the habit of wanting to go to the animals' heads all the time. Not desirable if you want him working for you.

[juliepoudrier]

I'd go back to taking a short leash with you and tie him when your attention is elsewhere.

 

J.

[olivehill]

Thanks, ladies.

 

Gloria, I absolutely agree with you about it being unacceptable. Not sure why I hadn't thought to make it a "meet your maker" offense. I can certainly do that.

 

Julie, that was my plan. Glad to hear it would be your's as well. Much appreciate your input.

[Sue R]

What both Gloria and Julie said. Make sure you tie him with something he can't chew, like a chain or cable.

[olivehill]

Thanks, Sue. Will do!

[Gloria Atwater]

We love them, but they can sometimes be such gigantic dorks.

 

~ Gloria

[lookback]

I totally agree with Gloria, but in my opinion, simply tying a dog up or penning it, doesn't teach it anything.

 

Your dog is adolescent - and at the age where it's finding loads of new things that are exciting. One exciting thing (initially) is to be let out in the morning, and to be with you, but if things get boring, then the adolescent will start looking for something more stimulating.

 

What I recommend is you take the dog out with you as usual, but deliberately set things up so that you know this will happen. When it does happen, you're ready for it. Catch the dog - make it very clear how unhappy you are, and bundle the dog back into its pen and leave it there for at least an our, preferably two.

 

Then, let the dog out and repeat the procedure.

 

It won't take a young dog long to learn that if he does this, he's going to spend longer and longer in his pen - and NOT with you - which is what he wants to do most of all.

 

Hope this helps.

[gcv-border]

Note: I have only taken a couple of herding lessons, but one of these times I did have a conversation with the trainer about a similar topic. He prefers to keep his young dogs out of sight of livestock when he is not working them. He doesn't want them 'working' the livestock mentally, because they can develop bad mental habits, that may later translate into the physical. When he is training them, he is there to correct bad habits or incorrect behaviors. Once his dogs are trained, he will allow them to go around the farm with him.

 

Just passing this thought along, but not sure if it is something other, more experienced handlers will agree with.

 

Jovi

[Sue R]

Jovi makes a very good point but I have seen both sides of that coin from different and very well respected trainers/clinicians. In general, the consensus has been that if the dogs are tied up, they should be quietly staying put and watching, not acting up. For other trainers and clinicians, they prefer the dogs to be out of sight. So there are varying thoughts on this subject.

 

In addition, I don't think anyone was advocating *just* tying the dog up, and I am sorry if I gave that impression in my reply.

 

What I would tend to do in my own situation is try and take the youngster with me for chores *when appropriate* and when it would not be counterproductive. I have tied a youngster at times but have not had the situation where that young dog was reacting to the stock and needing more than a very occasional verbal correction.

 

If I felt the young dog was not benefitting from doing chores with me (learning things that would be helpful rather than developing bad habits or being exposed to something he shouldn't be doing or experiencing), then I would leave him in his crate or kennel, or the house, while I did chores. And then I'd take him out for a walk or "chores" that would be set up to help him in his growth and training, along with developing our partnership.

 

So perhaps the OP could break up her chore list into those things that she could do with Juno along, with her and under close supervision, and that would provide her with positive training experience, and those chores where she needed to leave Juno elsewhere (crate, kennel, stall, house) because she could not be giving Juno close attention or making it a positive training experience.

 

Think it out, feel it out, and figure what's best for you both. Good luck!

 

PS - By "positive" training experience I don't mean the same "positive-only" that pet trainers sometimes utilize. I mean a training experience that will result in progress and learning, and not (intentionally or unintentionally) bad habits or counterproductive learning.

[olivehill]

lookback -- Actually, I've done that with him and it doesn't seem to have a strong effect on his behavior.

 

Jovi -- I've heard that too. And then like Sue said, the opposite as well. With the way our property is there essentially no where out of doors that is not within eye shot of stock at this point so it's simply not feasible for me to completely segregate him from them.

 

Sue -- I knew what you were saying and agree. I do believe he gets something out of being with me when I take him and wouldn't keep taking him otherwise. (And he doesn't always go. If I'm in a hurry or busy or doing something that will take an extraordinary amount of my attention, for instance.) Just to clarify this pup is not Juno, though. He's about the same age, I think, but male and I'm a different OP.

 

We had a snowstorm last night and he went out to the back field to sled with the kids this morning so he wasn't around for chores. I'll report back with the results once I've had a chance to try the "meet your maker" and short lead on him. Thanks again for all your suggestions and help, everyone.

[Gloria Atwater]

lookback -- Actually, I've done that with him and it doesn't seem to have a strong effect on his behavior.

 

 

 

I like Lookback's idea, and I have to ask, when you *have* caught him and bundled him off to be put away, are you sure he understood that he was in trouble? If you just catch him and say, Oh, that's enough, let's go, he may not realize he's actually been a bad boy. But if you make it a BIG deal, heavy scolding, catch him up firmly, haul him off as if you were angry and just leave him somewhere in lockdown ... would that perhaps make an impression?

 

Goodness, no, I wasn't advocating just tying him up all the time, nor being mean or cruel to him! But if you can't watch him for 5 or 10 minutes, tying up can just keep him from building a bad behavior while your back is turned. And sometimes a big, firm impression of upset can get their attention. Anyhow, looking forward to hearing how he comes along.

 

~ Gloria