Pup Age, Training Frequency, and Nursery Trialing

[olivehill]

I've spent quite a chunk of time recently reading about trialing, the different classes, and training for them here in the archives and thank you all for the tremendous amount of knowledge that has already been shared. One thing I didn't seem to find in my traipsing about here though, and a question that keeps coming to me, is how age and training frequency plays into whether or not a dog may be a prospect for Nursery class trialing.

 

I understand it takes time and lots of it to make an open dog, and that some dog-handler teams are not capable of reaching that level at all. And if I'm understanding what I've read, nursery classes are basically open level courses simply run by young dogs who are under the age of three years. It seems then, that a tremendous amount of training would go into a young dog in order to advance them to that stage by the age cut off. Is this true? Are pups generally started early -- or earlier -- in order to achieve that end goal? (Assuming the pup is individually ready to begin at a younger age here, not that a handler would force it... doesn't seem you could force it. At least not in such a way that would return any worthwhile results anyway.) How would a handler know if a particular pup "has" what it would take to make a Nursery dog? I guess what I'm asking is, at what point in the process would a handler think to him or herself, that Nursery might be a realistic goal for a given pup?

 

Or am I completely mis-understanding and nursery is more of a stepping stone that many dogs go through on their way to Open?

 

At least part of my curiosity stems from my own pup. He is now just shy of eight months and yesterday I took him to a trainer to try him on stock for the first time. He's seemed to be "turned on" for a few months now, so I knew there'd be some interest there, but of course unsure how it'd manifest. I'm as green as the spring grass so my opinion certainly holds precious little water, but he seemed to do well and the trainer seemed pleased with him as well. So of course I began looking into what goes into trialing more seriously and of course that got the (perhaps overly optimistic) wheels turning. Anyway, just curious.

[Liz P]

Take this with a grain of salt because I have only run one dog in Nursery...

 

Some dogs mature mentally at a much younger age than others. I have 2 brothers who took years to grow up. Nursery wasn't in the cards for them. They were still acting like teenagers until they were 3 years old. One of my previous dogs could have probably run Nursery with a more experienced handler, but he was 4 years old before I really had him under control. I look back at all my novice mistakes with him and shudder. But, at least he forgave me and matured into a great working partner.

 

I have one dog who ran in Nursery at a year of age. She was very keen and training pressure didn't seem to bother her at all. She could take hours of training in a single day and was still begging for more.

 

Her daughter is a very different dog. She is supremely natural and talented, but sensitive and bores easily. If I had huge farm with hours and hours of real work that needed to be done each day, she might have already been running in Nursery. The reality is, I have a small hobby farm and need to invent chores to trick her into thinking she is working. She might not make it as a Nursery dog just because she will not tolerate drilling and artificial exercises the way her mother did.

 

Nursery is not necessarily a stepping stone, but an extra class to showcase dogs who demonstrate early talent. Not all dogs are cut out for it and some may have been pushed too hard, too fast to get there. I hear stories about handlers burning dogs out by putting pressure on them to run Nursery. I am trying to avoid that with my current pup. If she doesn't ever compete in that class it's fine by me, as long as she makes it to Open and still loves her job.

[olivehill]

Thanks, Liz! That's very helpful, actually.

 

It kind of raises another question for me though, if you don't mind. How much sensitivity is too much? The trainer took my pup around the round pen twice yesterday for 3-5 minutes each time. The first time he was a bit sensitive to pressure, when she applied pressure he'd kind of go out to the edge and then come back in at them from another angle. That time she went about three minutes and then gave him a break, we talked by the gate, etc. And then the second time that diminished quite a bit, to where she'd put pressure on him and he'd just widen out the circle a bit. Never really moving off the stock at all though. That time they went a little longer maybe 4 or 5 minutes (I video'd the first but not the second, so not sure on exact time there) and by the end he was keener, less sensitive, widening out and, in her much more experience words, "feeling his stock".

 

I guess being so green I'm just wondering, at what point does sensitivity to pressure make a "sensitive" dog?

[Debbie Meier]

Sounds like you have a good start with a good trainer. These would be good questions to bring up with her.

 

In regard to sensitivity, I feel that we see more then one type of sensitivity, there is that part where they are feeling their livestock and the other is more of a mental/emotional sensitivity. They can intertwine.

[olivehill]

Thanks, Debbie. I'm certainly planning to ask these questions of her at our next lesson -- especially as it relates to my pup specifically -- just welcome others' more general opinions and explanations in the meantime. It definitely makes sense that various sorts of sensitivity could intertwine.

[Debbie Meier]

Regarding the age of starting and the Nursery class, so much depends on the individual dog and the person owning/training the dog. I have found that dogs won't be ready to handle training until they are ready, one may be just under a year while a littermate may not be ready until 16 months. All I can do is offer the best environment from a teaching and learning direction as I can until that time comes. What I mean by that is suppling good structure and a training foundation that will work in harmony with our stockdog training philosiphies. If we get lucky enough to have a dog that is keen and natural to work and doesn't have a adverse trait or strong obsession that we have to deal with a dog may be ready to go out and run in a few select nursery trials in a surprisingly short period of time. What allows the early success is a expirenced hand that already has a idea of what pitfalls to look out for. This expirence allows for training in a positive direction as opposed to having to spend time retraining before you can move forward with a dog.

 

Bare in mind that our expirence is trialling on cattle, but I recall hoping to be ready for Nursery with our first border collie, but we fell short by about 1 year, our second made it to nursery finals, he was a full two years ahead of our first dog when looking at his age benchmarks, he was doing at 1 year old what our first border collie couldn't do until 3, but even then I wish I had had another 30 days, he peaked not long after finals. Hopefully each has taught us better as to what we need to do different to have a dog ready, or maybe it's just a matter of waiting to have the right dog.

 

Presently I have a young dog that is way behind when I compare him to our second dog, he may be like his grandsire and not be ready for nursery and just move right on to Open the following year when he hits his stride. This dog has what i call an obsession, he really gets hung up leaning into pressure and it takes alot of schooling and repetition to free him up, once he is working free then it takes a equal amount of schooling and repetition to get him to stop. He's the type that you want to throw in the towel with, especially after dealing with way easider dogs previously, but also the type that will teach you a lot, if not just patience. I can't even worry about setting a goal as to when I expect him to be running nursery, open, pro-novice or even exhibition, he will be ready when he is ready. Even just useful dog will be enough.

 

You ask about when in training a handler might get an idea as to if a dog may be able to run nursery at a early age, it might be as early as the dogs first training session. You might see the dog just pick things up almost as if they knew what you wanted right from the start. I've had dogs that you only had to show them what you wanted a couple of times and they had it, and when you took them to a new place and asked for it they gave it to you. Other dogs may take a lot longer to grasp a concept and when you move them to a new place you have to give them a refresher. Once again it is reliant on the trainer knowing what they are asking for and when, and recognizing if they are getting what they want or not within in a fraction of a second and either discouraging or rewarding accordingly.

 

Hope that didn't get too confusing, sorry if it did. Everyone has different expirences and expectations.

[juliepoudrier]

It depends on the dog more than anything else. Second on the handler. As a newbie, it would be unlikely that you'd have the skill to have a green youngster running in nursery successfully. Not impossible, but not really likely unless your dog is a prodigy and you're able to learn your part quickly.

 

I think a lot of young dogs get pushed way harder than they need to be because people want to go to the finals with a nursery dog.

 

My experience is a little different than Liz's with respect to dog personalities. My first dog was very natural and hated drilling (still does, and so do I), and yet I was able to run her in nursery at a year of age because she was so natural and pretty much self-trained "out of the box." An accident with another of my dogs caused me to take a break, and it certainly didn't hurt her to have that break. As a two year old she won a bunch of nursery classes, but the finals were out west, so we didn't go anyway. I ended up using that nursery year as prep for moving to open the following year (she was still two that fall we moved to open). Running nursery just gave us the advantage of being able to run twice in a day, which you usually can't do. So it was a great way to get mileage.

 

If a young dog is truly showing a great deal of aptitude and you feel confident you can handle the course, then there's no reason not to try it. I just always remind myself that I'd rather have a good, solid open dog than a possible "flash in the pan" nursery dog. On the political side of things, I really dislike people who take dogs to the post in nursery who clearly aren't ready just to fill out a class so someone else can qualify.

 

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,

 

I've run in nursery trials and finals. While I do think they can be a useful training tool I believe no handler should run a nursery dog until he/she has competed with an open dog. I've suggested such a rule (to no avail) to the HA.

 

Training a sheepdog to its best possibilities is a difficult, intensive task some of which is counter-intuitive and, in successful cases requires dedication, livestock savvy and the attention of a good mentor. Training will take place over hundreds of hours during the dog’s lifetime but the foundation will be laid before the dog is emotionally mature.

 

Between (approx) 10-28 months is the sheepdog’s golden learning period. It is also the golden mislearning period because the dog hasn’t the experience or maturity to evaluate its work or its handler.

 

While I don't doubt experienced handlers can train and compete a nursery dog WHILE creating a dog that can work at and sometimes beyond its capacity for the subsequent 6-9 years of its working life, and I do know one (1) top handler who learned as she ran her first sheepdog in nursery w/o ruining the dog, I think she was the exception that proves the rule.

 

The novice who insists on having his/her sheepdog trained to complete a nursery course before the dog is three years old is letting his/her competitive urges risk the dog’s mastery of working skills the novice handler doesn’t yet understand nor know how to evaluate.

 

Don’t do it. If you want to trial, run your young dog in Novice/novice or pro/novice, Don’t push until you know where you’re going.

 

Donald McCaig

[olivehill]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

 

Starting out is such a ride. You "get" one thing, only for it to lead to many more questions, the answers to which needing to be understood in order to move on to the next question in line. Or, at least, that's where I seem to be at at this point. You know, it's one thing to see your pup and start to get a feel for where he's at, but then it just opens up a whole flood gate of how that relates to... well, everything. Anyway, your explanations and anecdotes are very helpful in being able to begin to piece together the 'how these things work' side of it and are very much appreciated.

 

To be clear, I have no intention of pushing the pup at all. Certainly, it'd be neat if he did something at some point, but that's much in the same way it'd be neat if I won the lottery this week... I should probably start with buying a ticket for once.

 

My ultimate goal for him is to simply be useful at home on the farm (and hopefully for a long, long time.) If I'm honest with myself I don't have any real intentions to put a lot of time into trialing at this point -- at any level. I might eventually take him to some close to home to see how he stacks up, but I can't really imagine us traveling to finals. Not the least of the reasons for which, he's intended for cattle eventually and it seems most of the cattle trialing is done a few states away. I don't even know how we'd ever manage to accumulate the points needed to qualify. I'm thinking the bug would have to bite me HARD to make all that feasible. We'll see...

 

As far as the dog, I'm certainly no expert, but from the little I've seen I'd not say he was a prodigy in any shape or form. He didn't run around with his tail flagged eating sheep poo, but he seemed fairly middle of the road from what little I could tell. Interested, enthusiastic, aware that there was indeed a human in there with him, but otherwise... just a Border Collie pup meeting some sheep for the first time.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge with a newbie!