Provoking excitement

[ejano]

Robin evidently doesn't have enough excitement in his life. He is enjoying scattering the sheep so he can round them up again so this is the problem I am working on fixing.

 

Yesterday evening when I was working with him, I picked my three calmest sheep. While he did his darnedest to scatter them, they stuck to my leg like burrs. I felt like I was in the middle of a butter churn as he whirled around us. I kept stepping in front of him, either lying him down, making him change direction, or pushing him back off the sheep. I achieved what I thought might be a tiny amount of success as he did take the commands. He was still wild, puppy eager when I took him off the last time. He hasn't been that way for some time so I'm thinking there still must be something amiss to have him that dissatisfied mentally. Or maybe I'm over-thinking it, and he was just having a heck of a good time and didn't want to quit as he was pouting every time I took him off the sheep?

 

 

Is this all I can do, or is there another approach to teaching him how to stay off the sheep and to take time?

 

He will take a "slow" or "steady" command once he has the sheep and is doing something with them. In his first small outrun of the evening, he got them stuck in a corner of the pasture and was holding them there as he was unsure of what to do. He didn't want to blast into them as he was reacting holding them against the pressure of heading back to the barn. We worked quite nicely together with him taking good direction. For once we were in complete agreement about how to get the job done. Felt good. .

 

(I always feel like I'm doing something wrong with him because when I train with Brodie, I tell Brodie he's a good boy and he wags his tail and we leave the field with him prancing beside me. I tell Robin he's a good boy, he pays absolutely no mind and we leave the field with him dragging me backward toward the sheep. Once in a rare while, I can tell that he's leaving with his mind, satisfied and relaxed but I can't yet put a rhyme or reason to why.)

 

Thanks,

Liz

[Cynthia P]

Liz, how long has it been since you have gone and taken a lesson? Might be a good time with Robin. His lie down needs to be more solid. so you can get to the sheep and be there for the outrun.

 

With dogs that are prone to busting off their unclipped leash to the sheep i have a second line on them tied to something, when I unclip them, after reminding them to lie down, if they attempt to run towards the sheep they are thwarted by the second line. I don't make it long enough that they can break their neck, but enough to give them a decent correction. I go back and do it again.

 

It sounds like he is trying to beat you as you are working on wearing. Get that solid lie down, no big flanks, little walk up, if he isn't walking up nicely, lie down, not getting to the sheep unless he is being nice.

 

Look for a clinic or some lessons nearby as I think you may be winding him up, not purposefully, just because you may not be in the right place.

 

Cynthia

[ejano]

Liz, how long has it been since you have gone and taken a lesson? Might be a good time with Robin. His lie down needs to be more solid. so you can get to the sheep and be there for the outrun.

 

With dogs that are prone to busting off their unclipped leash to the sheep i have a second line on them tied to something, when I unclip them, after reminding them to lie down, if they attempt to run towards the sheep they are thwarted by the second line. I don't make it long enough that they can break their neck, but enough to give them a decent correction. I go back and do it again.

 

It sounds like he is trying to beat you as you are working on wearing. Get that solid lie down, no big flanks, little walk up, if he isn't walking up nicely, lie down, not getting to the sheep unless he is being nice.

 

Look for a clinic or some lessons nearby as I think you may be winding him up, not purposefully, just because you may not be in the right place.

 

Cynthia

 

Hi Cynthia, great advice. We'll go back to basics. We had a lesson just last week, which was where this problem emerged. We moved out into the "really big" pasture where he had a heck of a good time. Obviously, we overreached ourselves.

 

His initial start has some self control and he reacts to a slow down command but the closer he gets to the sheep the more excited he gets. It doesn't help that he has a great deal of presence and the sheep naturally are more flighty around him - which might be self rewarding? He expects them to pop off and if they don't, he'll make it happen?

 

He's got to learn to stay way off them as well. About an acre away, I think .

[Amelia]

Hi Liz,

 

First off, how old is Robin? From what you describe, your dog is beating you to sheep, and likely slicing and chousing in the process. This isn't so much bad on the dog as it is poor timing and positioning on your part. I don't diminish enthusiasm, but it's imperative that it be shaped appropriately.

 

While training Robin, you must match his intention with your own. In other words be strong enough with him that you get his attention. It sounds like you aren't at this point and he's having his way with you. Again, that doesn't make him bad, it makes him keen. The fact that he's holding sheep to the fence and not balancing to you tells me he's playing, not thinking. Got to get him thinking.

 

Start by leaving him on a line, walking towards sheep, and if he runs at them before you want him to, stay silent, hold the line tight and allow him to gently hit the end of it. A few feet of loose line won't allow him to build enough speed to hurt himself, but will make him realize you're in the picture.

 

Once you can walk in the direction of sheep without him taking off, lie him down 20-30ft from the sheep. The idea will be for him to stay there while you walk all the way to them. If your line is that long, hold onto it, making him stay, until you get to the sheep. If he takes off before you get there, shorten up, let him gently hit the end of it, put him back where he began with a correction for leaving before you asked, and repeat until he stays put while you walk to the sheep. If you match his intention, it won't take long for him to learn to stay put.

 

Once he will stay until you get to the sheep, you can ask for a proper flank. Stand in a direct line between him and the sheep, ask for a flank, and intently watch the very first step he takes. If it is directly towards you and the sheep, he is slicing. Give a correction, lie him down, move him back to where he started. Back up to the sheep, and repeat until his first step is out.

 

At that point it's up to you to stay in a position between him and the sheep that prevents him from tightening up his arc, and in the beginning, he will continually try to tighten up, because that's what he's used to. Generally, if his arc is getting tighter, you're out of position. As he is flanking, keep moving to remain between him and the sheep and cause him to widen continually. If he is, you've got it right.

 

If you're too far in front of him, he'll reverse his direction. Too far behind him, he'll slice. You just have to play with it, and find your sweet spot. I give a correction for reversal, and make dogs continue flanking in the direction they started, whether I'm too far in front or not. That's how you get an off balance flank and how you keep dogs flanking freely. Something to think about even in the beginning stages.

 

As far as dragging you back to the sheep after you've said "that'll do." A little puppy enthusiasm is to be expected, but I never, ever let my dogs or puppies pull on me. Never. Very bad manners. I make the rules. If he's pulling as you're walking away, gently tug and release saying "that'll do." Once again, if you match his intention with your own, it won't take long to teach him not to pull. The key to this, like everything else, is to be 100% consistent so the message is perfectly clear and resolute.

 

Good luck with him.

[ejano]

Hi Liz,

 

First off, how old is Robin? From what you describe, your dog is beating you to sheep, and likely slicing and chousing in the process. This isn't so much bad on the dog as it is poor timing and positioning on your part. I don't diminish enthusiasm, but it's imperative that it be shaped appropriately.

 

While training Robin, you must match his intention with your own. In other words be strong enough with him that you get his attention. It sounds like you aren't at this point and he's having his way with you. Again, that doesn't make him bad, it makes him keen. The fact that he's holding sheep to the fence and not balancing to you tells me he's playing, not thinking. Got to get him thinking.

 

Start by leaving him on a line, walking towards sheep, and if he runs at them before you want him to, stay silent, hold the line tight and allow him to gently hit the end of it. A few feet of loose line won't allow him to build enough speed to hurt himself, but will make him realize you're in the picture.

 

Once you can walk in the direction of sheep without him taking off, lie him down 20-30ft from the sheep. The idea will be for him to stay there while you walk all the way to them. If your line is that long, hold onto it, making him stay, until you get to the sheep. If he takes off before you get there, shorten up, let him gently hit the end of it, put him back where he began with a correction for leaving before you asked, and repeat until he stays put while you walk to the sheep. If you match his intention, it won't take long for him to learn to stay put.

 

Once he will stay until you get to the sheep, you can ask for a proper flank. Stand in a direct line between him and the sheep, ask for a flank, and intently watch the very first step he takes. If it is directly towards you and the sheep, he is slicing. Give a correction, lie him down, move him back to where he started. Back up to the sheep, and repeat until his first step is out.

 

At that point it's up to you to stay in a position between him and the sheep that prevents him from tightening up his arc, and in the beginning, he will continually try to tighten up, because that's what he's used to. Generally, if his arc is getting tighter, you're out of position. As he is flanking, keep moving to remain between him and the sheep and cause him to widen continually. If he is, you've got it right.

 

If you're too far in front of him, he'll reverse his direction. Too far behind him, he'll slice. You just have to play with it, and find your sweet spot. I give a correction for reversal, and make dogs continue flanking in the direction they started, whether I'm too far in front or not. That's how you get an off balance flank and how you keep dogs flanking freely. Something to think about even in the beginning stages.

 

As far as dragging you back to the sheep after you've said "that'll do." A little puppy enthusiasm is to be expected, but I never, ever let my dogs or puppies pull on me. Never. Very bad manners. I make the rules. If he's pulling as you're walking away, gently tug and release saying "that'll do." Once again, if you match his intention with your own, it won't take long to teach him not to pull. The key to this, like everything else, is to be 100% consistent so the message is perfectly clear and resolute.

 

Good luck with him.

 

I need luck with this Red Dog - and all my wits. He's 3 years old this year. We've been training in fits and starts as I've been working around some illness, now behind me. At this point, we've been doing as you outlined and he is good about walking into the field, lying down and waiting for a command while I walk up the line to the sheep then I turn back to face him and send him around and he brings them to me - and off we go "walkies", wearing the sheep down and back. He balances pretty well though both he and my other dog insist on guarding the off side, staying between the sheep and the barn. It's not pretty but we're managing that part.

 

Edit -- we do need to practice the middle part you describe, widening his arc - I've been standing at the bottom of the clock - say 6 o clock but if I move to around 3 o clock before giving him the release command that might help because that's where he starts to slice in?

 

It's the next step, when I'm standing with him beside me and sending him off from the post as it were on an outrun - this is very new for us. I'm missing a very major part of the puzzle. When he is collecting them from the barn side of the field, he does pretty well - he seems to get them all together, brings them to the "post" at a reasonable pace, and then off we go wearing the sheep again. It is when we turn around and try it in the other direction that he gets all ramped up - holding them against the fence, then kiting all around them. Maybe he's reacting to the pressure - not wanting them to go back to the barn? So many different elements at play?

 

(As for that pulling -- never, never have I had a dog that pulls on a lead like he does. I've tried what seems like a hundred different techniques to break him. What worked the best was switching direction (as you say, a counter move). He knows he's doing wrong and he's sorry every time. The second he's aware that he's misbehaving, he comes right back to heel then he's right at it again. Off lead, he sticks with me quite well, even walking up to the sheep. I don't quite trust him when we're coming off the sheep. He responds to "That will do, here" but it really bothers him to leave the sheep out in the field. Several times it's been thundering hooves - "HEY YOU FORGOT THESE!" Post manners also top our list of things to learn.

[Amelia]

Edit -- we do need to practice the middle part you describe, widening his arc - I've been standing at the bottom of the clock - say 6 o clock but if I move to around 3 o clock before giving him the release command that might help because that's where he starts to slice in?

 

Stand with the sheep, and make his first step correct. You don't correct a flank, or an outrun necessarily, from the point at which it goes wrong. You correct it from the dog's first step. Many times, when you correct the dog's first step and thereby his flank, the outrun is fixed as well.

 

Practice making the dog widen as he is flanking, with sheep at your feet. When you can do that consistently, other things will likely fall into place.

 

As for the confusion surrounding the barn, I'm having a hard time visualizing. Sounds like your sheep may be stale/sour. Get new sheep, and work in an unfamiliar area whenever possible. Keep things fresh for your dog, especially given his age. I don't like to work towards a draw, but my dogs must still do as I ask no matter.

[ejano]

Stand with the sheep, and make his first step correct. You don't correct a flank, or an outrun necessarily, from the point at which it goes wrong. You correct it from the dog's first step. Many times, when you correct the dog's first step and thereby his flank, the outrun is fixed as well.

 

Practice making the dog widen as he is flanking, with sheep at your feet. When you can do that consistently, other things will likely fall into place.

 

As for the confusion surrounding the barn, I'm having a hard time visualizing. Sounds like your sheep may be stale/sour. Get new sheep, and work in an unfamiliar area whenever possible. Keep things fresh for your dog, especially given his age. I don't like to work towards a draw, but my dogs must still do as I ask no matter.

 

 

Thanks Amelia for your detailed responses. I will work on these things you suggested.

 

Your suspicions regarding the sheep are quite likely on the mark as well. Though I mix up the group to work with, they are all tame (we keep them for fiber)and know the drill all too well. I've two new sheep coming in a few weeks and am scheduling some lessons for Robin and me.

[Cynthia P]

Good Liz and yes he is most likely guarding the draw back to the barn. He's Thinking you might be slightly batty for sending him on the other side

 

Move in gradual steps back to having him beside you to start the outrun. Start at the sheep and move 1/3 the way back, 1/2 the way, 1/4, the way 1/8 the way, next to him but facing him, and finally next to him. It might not be that slow. But it might as well.

 

Keep at it, Sheepherding is a 40 year apprenticeship

 

Cynthia

 

ETA: Amelia has excellent advice about making sure the first step of the flank is correct!