geonni banner Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 I read a lot here about managing a young pup's introduction to sheep. What about a dog that's 3 1/2 years old and has never seen sheep? She has a solid recall and down. Is there an average number of times to expose the dog to sheep to see if it turns on to stock? What should I be watching for to see that she isn't going to be any use? I'm assuming that a dog that is interested in stock is not necessarily interested in working. If she is interested in the stock but doesn't seek a balance point, does that mean she doesn't have the needed instinct? I am, of course, assuming that the dog should be tried only under the eye of a good trainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Not what you are asking but maybe you can get something out of this, I'll share what I have going on with a pet border collie that is here: I just so happen to have a 3 1/2 year old dog here now that is being boarded for a couple/few months. The owners, actually son of the owner, asked if I would start her on stock and I agreed so long as she showed talent and the ability to take training. What I am running into more then anything else is her history, she came here with what the owners called a solid recall and lie down but she does not execute it in the same context as I would train a pup. I'm going to have to make an effort to adjust her execution, basically instead of recalling on her terms and only lying down when she is close to me with me doing alot of work via body language. I have found that she is a hard case and isn't interested in learning. It took her a week to learn the routine of crating up when told and almost two months later she is still hot and cold, sometimes she volunteers others she drags her feet and looks at me like I have two heads. This is compared to Pete who has been in the house for only a week, his crate is on top of another crate, he about knocks his crate off trying to get into it when he thinks I'm going to ask for everyone to crate up. The other issue she has is that she lacks self control, loves to play and gets all excited with her tail up chasing the other dogs through the house barking, quite annoying to our working dogs who have not been allowed to be silly like that without using it as a teaching moment. She needs to learn to control her feelings and emotions in order to work sheep, if she does not she wouldn't be able to feel balance if it was right in front of her. I saw this same reaction when she went to sheep, tail up and excited, the movement of the sheep just amped her up, she can't see the control point when her brain is spinning like a top and then when you ask her to settle her mind she thinks she is suppose to stop everything. Which means I will have to teach her how to learn what I have to teach her. Anyway, to me what she has for talent and natural ability does not matter, she's really not interested in really working for someone, unless they have a cookie, and she is not real quick on the uptake. I told the owners, who are only interested in herding for the most part from a novalty standpoint thinking that it would be something fun for her, I also think they hoped she would be World Champion material so that if they have to sell her she would be worth something. Anyway, I told them that there would not be much purpose in subjecting their dog to bootcamp. She is a good pet, enjoys hanging out with you so long as you don't ask much of her and loves cookies. If she had had a different start and upbringing it is possible that she could have been a nice working dog. BTW, she might be available for adoption in the future, real nice pet, medium coated, red. Her owner was placed in a nurseing home and many never be able to have her back. Just waiting on the family to make a decision as to what to do with her. Anyway, long story short, it may take only one expirence on sheep to see what your dog has for talent and ability or it may take many many, they are all individuals and we each have to weight out whether or not it is worth putting both dog and livestock through the exposures. Something that I ask people that inquire is if they plan on having working dogs in the future, if so then yeah, put more time into seeing what you can get out of the dog you have, it's a great learning expirence and in my mind is justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 The only issue I've noted on starting older dogs vs. starting pups is that the older dogs have however many years of owner training behind them, and some of that can be to their detriment. I've rarely seen a pup that actively sulks as the result of a correction on stock, but have experienced many mature dogs who think the answer to being corrected is to quit or sulk. I have no doubt that the pups who don't sulk would eventually be that way as well, if they were given several years of pethood to learn that a correction is the end of the world and quitting when things don't go one's way is a reward unto itself. Sorry if that sounds harsh on older dogs, but it's been my experience with dogs raised as pets and for sports when I've agreed to start them on stock. Of course if you have an adult, there's not much you can do to change that history, but maybe just being aware of it is half the battle.... I have also run into adult dogs who do just fine, but these are mostly dogs who were raised in a way more compatible with stockdog training. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serena+Eluane B.C. Posted January 3, 2012 Report Share Posted January 3, 2012 Wow, I didn't realize this post was going at the same time as some of my own questions, so I'll be rechecking here too, Geonni on everyone's response with this in terms of older dog... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 I read a lot here about managing a young pup's introduction to sheep. What about a dog that's 3 1/2 years old and has never seen sheep? She has a solid recall and down. Is there an average number of times to expose the dog to sheep to see if it turns on to stock? What should I be watching for to see that she isn't going to be any use? I'm assuming that a dog that is interested in stock is not necessarily interested in working. If she is interested in the stock but doesn't seek a balance point, does that mean she doesn't have the needed instinct? I am, of course, assuming that the dog should be tried only under the eye of a good trainer. Gosh, I've never thought of any average number of times. I think it would depend entirely on the individual dog! I got my old boy Jesse 11 years ago, as a 2-year-old rescue. He'd never seen a sheep in his life ... but he "turned on" to sheep within 60 seconds. I had him flanking beautifully both ways, just like that, and there was no second try required. I knew I had a working dog. But I've also seen dogs who were more interested in sniffing sheep poop or playing with the other dogs, at first, and who took a couple tries to turn on to sheep. Now, I've no idea how good those types of dogs ended up being. But whether a dog turns on immediately or not, doesn't necessarily reflect on how good their working instincts are. Nor do I think a dog that doesn't immediately find a natural balance point is a wash-out. Excitement, enthusiasm, all can kind of fog their ability to listen to their own instincts, and maybe some dogs just have to be taught about balance point. So an initial lack of natural balance would not be an automatic strike, in my book. I think for me to decide a dog is not useful, I'd have to see several strikes against them. Those strikes may include (but need not be limited to): inability to retain focus. Refusal or inability to engage the livestock. Inability to get past chase-play-prey mode. And/or inability to include the handler in this new "game," (i.e., they'd rather just chase and try to bite than acknowledge the handler is any part of it.) If the dog can't sustain interest, or if it becomes clear the dog is only interested in the chase, and maybe gets sulky when the human steps in ... then I'd have to figure it's not really going to make a working dog. I don't think age, per se, is going to affect a dog's instinct or ability to work. It's just whatever he's learned or experienced to shape his behaviors, before being introduced to sheep that may (or may not) affect his reactions to them. My thought, anyhow. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted January 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 The only issue I've noted on starting older dogs vs. starting pups is that the older dogs have however many years of owner training behind them, and some of that can be to their detriment. I've rarely seen a pup that actively sulks as the result of a correction on stock, but have experienced many mature dogs who think the answer to being corrected is to quit or sulk. I have no doubt that the pups who don't sulk would eventually be that way as well, if they were given several years of pethood to learn that a correction is the end of the world and quitting when things don't go one's way is a reward unto itself. Sorry if that sounds harsh on older dogs, but it's been my experience with dogs raised as pets and for sports when I've agreed to start them on stock. Of course if you have an adult, there's not much you can do to change that history, but maybe just being aware of it is half the battle.... I have also run into adult dogs who do just fine, but these are mostly dogs who were raised in a way more compatible with stockdog training. J. My dog is obedient, and takes corrections very well. I've never known her to sulk. (Except when the cat takes over her bed.) Her recall is quite good. I walk her at night without a leash and on two occasions she has started after a cat - peeled out, head and tail down at a dead run - and she threw on the brakes with a one-word rebuke. She returned to me with no sign of being put out and no attempt to seek the cat again. She is, however a very upright dog - high on the leg, no crouch to speak of. Her tail is often gay or in line with her body. I know that this doesn't in itself mean that she won't work, but I fear she'll never be stylish in the classic working Border Collie sense. I'm not a cookie pusher. My dog works for me because she wants to, and because she knows I'll stand no nonsense. She has plenty of initiative, and is not above mischief, but she learns quickly and rarely repeats a transgression. She always knows where I am, when to be quiet and when it's OK to be silly. I wouldn't take for her. She's the best dog I've ever had, and I've had some good ones. I think working stock would be good for us both, and I hope she's up to it. But if not, she will be no less dear to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Dear Wouldbe Shwwpsoggers, Julie wrote: The only issue I've noted on starting older dogs vs. starting pups is that the older dogs have however many years of owner training behind them, and some of that can be to their detriment. Agreed. In my view the simple expectations for dog behavior in the sheepdog community produce dogs at least as mannerly as those trained formally by any method. Next time you're at a trial check out the yappy, unruly small terriers under the handlers tent. The second difficulty is learning ability which is at its greatest in sheepdogs between puberty and maturity - roughly 6 months/2 years. Yes you can train a dog that starts older (I've aeen them start at 8) but you won't get as far as one you start younger. If that"s okay with you, I guarantee it'll be okay with your dog. Donld McCaig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Donald wrote: Dear Wouldbe Shwwpsoggers, not sure what a shwwpsogger is but I guess your typing is about as good as mine I've worked with many older dogs, there are many variables. Mannerliness is a big one. dogs not mannerly are much harder to get control of over all than those with good manners expected of them. Trainability varies due to the early education/methods/expectations of trainer, and the dog's natural abilities. As for number of exposures it depends, some turn right on others take several exposures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura L Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 Agreed. In my view the simple expectations for dog behavior in the sheepdog community produce dogs at least as mannerly as those trained formally by any method. Next time you're at a trial check out the yappy, unruly small terriers under the handlers tent. Donld McCaig You don't mean that seriously do you? I don't think I've seen a yappy, unruly dog under the handler's tent, although there have been a few dogs that have walked in with spectators over the years. Laura Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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