Commands to learn before livestock

[SamDog]

Hi,

 

I have an 11 week old pup. I'm interested in maybe putting him on stock next spring/summer. Don't worry, won't do it on my own cause I've never trained a stock dog. So, my question is, besides manners and basic obedience, what other commands should be taught?

 

Thanks!

[juliepoudrier]

Manners and basic obedience is all he really needs. A recall falls under basic obedience, but that doesn't mean he'll remember it when he first turns on to stock. Just work on letting him grow up to be a happy, mannerly dog and don't do so much obedience that requires a strict focus on you and you will be fine.

 

Basic herding commands are all taught relative to stock. Although some have taught "dry" commands using a ball or frisbee or whatever and cones or fencing or something similar for shaping, say, an outrun, it's really not necessary to do so and may just confuse the dog when it comes time to apply those commands to stock work. These are smart dogs, and he will learn the commands soon enough once you start him.

 

J.

[cgt]

Julie gives excellent advice.

 

I don't give lessons or anything - I haven't worked with enough dogs to really be good at it - but when beginners ask me advice about how to prepare a young dog I usually say something like Julie said. I also say something like, "Make sure your dog knows what a correction is." Fortunately, people never seem to ask me what I mean by that, because I am not sure how to explain it. But here goes anyway.

 

If your dog has any instinct at all, chances are the first exposure to stock will resemble a rodeo. The only way (in my very limited experience) to settle things down and to give the dog a chance to find the proper way to work the stock without all the puppy excitement spoiling things is to use your voice and your body to keep the dog from chasing, biting, whatever. Your dog needs to know that when you do whatever you do for a correction ("Hey!", or a growl, or whatever) - perhaps accompanied by motion toward the dog: (1) The world is not going to end, (2) It means to change behavior - try something else. Many starting dogs I've seen either freak out when suddenly the trainer is putting all kinds of pressure on them with their voice and/or body, or they run (literally) through the trainer because they never learned to respect a correction.

 

 

Many things we teach our dogs can be done almost purely by positive reinforcement. It is tempting to hope that somehow this will be true when starting on livestock. Positive reinforcement *is* very important when working stock. It's the key, actually. But you gotta have some way to make them stop the undesirable stuff (e.g., chasing) so you can reward them when they try the more desirable alternative (e.g., circling to balance). Of course, THE reward is you shut up, back off, and let them have the sheep for a moment or two.

 

How to teach a dog to take a correction? I will let others take that one on. But if your dog knows when you are giving negative feedback, and knows it's not really A Horrible Thing, but just you telling them to try something else - and they do try something different until they get it right, then you are probably good to go.

 

I probably didn't explain this too well. And there may be better qualified people with different opinions. Oh well.

 

charlie

[juliepoudrier]

Charlie,

You're right on the corrections. I guess I just don't think about it because it's sort of automatic in everyday puppy raising. Here's an example. I was walking the entire pack to the pond this evening and the pups persisted in jumping up and grabbing my t-shirt, resulting in several holes. Grrrrr. Each time one would jump up and grab at me, I would say "Aaaht" in a sharp tone and maybe rap them on the nose with a finger (but timing has to be impeccable, you can't correct after they've already put the hole in your shirt and have all four feet back on the ground--you must correct at the instant of the infraction; also you correct once and then carry on--it's quick and then it's over and life goes on as if nothing happened). It's enough to get their attention and make them realize that something they're doing is displeasing me. At this age they aren't easily frightened by the correction (persistent little buggers), but it does get them to stop and think. Then when they're old enough to start on stock and one dives in to grip oro do some other naughty thing, I can say "Aaaaht!" and the pup will immediately know that the behavior of the moment is unacceptable. But the pup won't run to a corner to hide because it will have been raised to understand the correction and that it doesn't mean the end of the world but simply "what you're doing is unacceptable; stop it and think of an alternative behavior." I don't know if that makes any more sense than what Charlie said, but I gave it a shot.

 

J.

[JBP]

so THAT's how you spell it? (Aaaaht!!!) My son and dogs know that sound

[SamDog]

Thanks everyone!!! Very good advice! This is the greatest board!!

 

Another question then, any good suggestions on a beginner type herding book? Something I can get a jump start on? Jake won't be in training for actual competition, just to help out on the ranch. But, still, I want him to rock!! Well, that is if he's into it. If not, we'll just have to try something else!

[KrisK]

Hi SamDog,

 

Check out the "Little Hats" section on the Boards. There is a lot of great information there. Since I'm just starting to train my dogs for sheepherding, I found there is good beginner information there.

BTW, once you start...it's TERRIBLY addicting! I'm going to suffer from withdrawal because I don't have my own sheep - YET and I can't travel to the trainers place as often

[Pipedream Farm]

Little Hats is another website with its own forum. There's lots of good info on this website for getting started in herding.

 

Mark

[KrisK]

Mark, thanks for that link! I didn't realize it was a separate forum OH NO! Now I can get more addicted to herding :eek:

[Sue R]

As for books or videos, I would strongly recommend Derek Scrimgeour's "Talking Sheepdogs" for a beginner as it's generally very clear and concise concerning basics and concepts, with very helpful diagrams. His video, "The Shepherd's Pup" is also (I believe) excellent and a great way to start understanding concepts of training. His video, "A Hill Shepherd Trains His Dogs" is also very good but briefer, and I think "The Shepherd's Pup" is better for a beginner.

 

One thing I like about his book for a beginner is that it is very basic and very concise. I found the following books to be very helpful but a little overwhelming when I was starting, with regards to the amount of material they cover.

 

Many folks, myself included, get a lot out of Bruce Fogt's "Lessons from a Sheepdog". He talks about the mistakes he made as a youngster with his first pup and then how to avoid the mistakes. A different approach, but very helpful. Other folks like Virgil Holland's "Sheepdogs, Progressive Training". Both these books have good sections at the back concerning problems encountered in training.

 

Julie Simpson has an excellent book, "The Natural Way" which is very inclusive and takes each aspect of training in a step-by-step fashion.

 

Nothing beats hands-on training with a trainer and appropriate stock, but books and videos can be very helpful in allowing you to see how the dogs work, the stock reacts, and the handler uses his/her body and voice to influence, encourage, and correct the dog.

 

If you are not yet ready to attend a clinic or don't have a place to take lessons, you might enjoy and benefit from auditing a clinic with a top trainer like Jack or Kathy Knox, Alasdair MacRae, Scott Glen, or any of several other world-class trainers/handlers/clinicians.

 

Best wishes!

[SamDog]

WOW!! Little Hats is wonderful!!

 

Well, a trainer or auditing a clinic would be great, but, it doesn't seem like NM is a hotbed of herding competition. I know they have at least one at the State Fair. Soooo, I think I'm stuck with books and videos. I'll search the clinics and see if there is anything close to me that I could attend.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Good advice all around. Being a Knox follower, I'd keep it as simple as he does when asked this question. His answer is that a pup needs to know three things before working with stock: his name, a correction and a recall. As pointed out, the correction can be any old (vocal)thing you and your pup have worked out to mean "no, that's not good". Corrections can be subtle or strong, but they have to be understood, and subtle always wins over extreme. Jack likes to demonstrate the pup getting a correction for chasing shoe laces; the pup chases, he gets a correction, and looks to his handler to say "what?", not dejected, not ashamed, just clearly "this wasn't good". Being the bright and biddable dogs they are, the idea is to get them to figure out a Plan B, which will either be allowed to continue, or corrected again. As a handler, we try to make the right things easy and the wrong things difficult, limiting their wrong choices and opening up room for the right ones. One other thing--resist the urge to teach a drop-dead "lie down" before getting on stock. You'll end up over-using it when things get beyond your ability to keep up with it. Use the recall, but Julie's right, if he has a lot of zip, don't be surprised if your pup gets tunnel vision and goes deaf on you when you first start out. Try to find a good trainer to help you.

Good luck and enjoy the ride.