Backing up

[Dixie_Girl]

As I mentioned in my other post, Carol Anne suggested I teach Jackson to back up. I will give what she suggested and ask if any of y'all have had experience in training a dog to do this and how and if this will work.

 

Holding lead short, stand in front of dog, saying command back, and either swatting ground with training stick or just crowding dogs space.

[Jennifer Glen]

I think you'll find that that is not a common thing to teach. In fact, I wonder if a judge would take points off for that? Like when they take them off for turning tail. I've never seen a dog back up at the pen, but I have heard that people teach it. I think the kelpies may do it so maybe the kelpie people on this bord will be able to help you.

I have been running open for 5 years now and I have never had a need to have a dog back up. I have found that good square flanks and a down (to take pressure off) and an on your feet (to put pressure on but no steps forward) are the tools I need for a pen.

Jenny

[Dixie_Girl]

Thanks Jenny. The whole thing came up when we were discussing the pen. She related how if the dog needed to be back from the shed and if the dog turned thereby taking eye contact off the sheep it was a docked point! I am new to this so I need all the input and others experience I can get.

[PSmitty]

I'll give my answer, but understand it's not from a herding perspective, just a training perspective. Whether he needs to know it for working is beyond me!

 

You can teach "back" in the way you described. As you step into Jackson, he'll naturally back up. So, you step into him, and when he moves back, say "back", then "good back!" and reward. He needs to hear the word "back" as he's moving in the right direction. Do this a few minutes every day, and I know he'll catch on.

 

I taught Jack to back up while playing frisbee. He'd rush in to me with it, drop it and stand right on top of it. So I started motioning him back, while saying "back". He quickly started to learn to back up. Then we transferred it to other places, and other circumstances, and he's well on his way to backing up on command.

 

Good luck!

[Dixie_Girl]

Thanks Paula! Sounds good to me! Not sure if I will ever need it, but why not have him know it! Might come in handy in other situations!

[PSmitty]

It comes in handy at the door. My two always think it's a race to see who can get out the door fastest, so I make them back up so I can open the door and go through.

[Jennifer Glen]

I'm not sure about what you mean he "needed to be back from the shed". The only time I can think of that a dog would lose a point for not making eye contact would be during the shed, but there is no back up in the shed or you would never get the shed called because there would be no controll of the sheep. I thought you were talking about a back up at the pen and I know you are not going to lose a point for taking your eyes off the sheep at the pen. That would be docking you for every square flank because a good square flank is when the dog turns it's head parallel to the sheep. (I know this in great detail because I fight Jed on it all the time and I am always noticing where his head is turned) Clarify it a little more for me and then I hope others will get into this discussion. I have heard that people teach that at the pen and are pretty proud of it but I want a constant steady pressure at the pen. To me, it seems that if you backed your dog up, you'd be showing weakness and the sheep would use that and you could say goodbye to the pen. I can tell you how to teach a back up because I used to train dogs for film and tv but I don't want to do that because I don't recommend it. I don't want to go against your trainer tho so that's why I would like others to get in on this discussion.

Jenny

[Dixie_Girl]

Jennifer, thanks for the reply. 1st off, my trainer just explained it to me as this, the sheep are in the pen but if the dog is close enough to the gate to where I can't close it, then a simple back up will get him out of the way without losing contact with sheep. I don't know anything else!

Did you mean you don't recommend teaching a dog to back up or that you don't recommend backing a dog on the pen?

 

I am trying so desperately to remember all the correct words for everything. Shed? Pen? I keep thinking they are the same! Please have patience!

[Dixie_Girl]

As a BTW I took Jackson outside and the crowding thing won't work with him because apparently he trusts me so much he just stood there! If I tried forcing with the lead he just layed down!

[Jennifer Glen]

That makes sense, but I've never had to use it. I'll have to think about it. That would just be a step or two out of the way that they would have to do. I think I probably would say "get back" or "move" but it would be the same for crowding the front door of my house. I don't think that if you are closing the gate your dog has to do anything but get out of the way. Just as long as he doesn't go behind the pen and shove the sheep back onto your closing door. I'll tell you tho that if your dog has to be in the path of the pen door then you have VERY broke sheep. Most of the time the sheep would climb over the back of the pen if the dog was that close. Usually your dog is farther away from the pen door and you are repeating "lie down, lie down, lie down" just to keep them from moving while you shut the gate. You'll see in a couple of months (hee hee). It can get kinda crazy and the last thing you want is your dog so close that you would need a back up.

In that case, I don't think I'd bother teaching a back up that is really formal and strait as an arrow. You could probably just tell the dog to back up and then walk into them. When they jump away from you, praise him. Like I said, use it the same way you would if they were crowding the door. All of mine know that if they don't move when I say, they might get a knee bumped into them.

Jenny

[Jennifer Glen]

PS teach the behavior OFF sheep and then when they can do it around the house, try it on the sheep. Baby steps, you know?

Jenny

[Jennifer Glen]

PSS walk right through him if he won't move. He'll get his toes stepped on and he'll learn.

Jenny

[Jennifer Glen]

Oh, yeah and then if his toes hurt, kiss him and tell him to move out of the way next time!

Jenny

[Dixie_Girl]

LOL Okay, all that you said makes sense. He already moves out of the way so I think we will see what instances a back up would really be needed.

 

Always gotta give kisses when he hurts! But I mean, I would have to step on his toes! He just won't move! What a dork he is!

[Dixie_Girl]

Oh, yeah, when I have been working him in the pen/field and the sheep are at a stand still I can tell him to 'get out of there' and he will move away, not much, but enough to keep the sheep calm.

[Zoe]

There is a video on how to do that in a fun way with a clicker on here somewhere ! I bet your dog backs up naturally sometimes - Dylan does when we play ball. I captured that and named it. And now he does it on command. It was dead easy. I don't know about your dog but Dylan would hate being on a short lead being swatted at ! Good luck.

http://animal.discovery.com/beyond/?dcitc=...&bclid=36732345

[Bill Fosher]

Why not teach the dog to be in the right place, rather than mechanically backing him off? If you can't close the gate, the dog is too damn close to the sheep in the pen anyway.

[Mona Howard]

A back command is a VERY useful command and one

I have had on all my dogs. You start out teaching

your dog that Get Back means that he needs to put

more distance between himself and his stock as he is putting too much pressure on them. Once your dog knows the basics you can incorportate it into his flanks. Instead of Come Bye you can ask for a Come Back which tells the dog you want him to move in a clockwise direction and also give ground at the same time. Away Back instead of Away to Me tells the dog the same thing but in the opposite direction. This will save your biscuits at the pen when your dog is creeping in and crowding your sheep. If he gives them room to think the sheep will settle better. If he's crowding them and maybe slicing his flanks they will become more difficult to pen or drive or anything. My two cents worth. Mona

[Mona Howard]

Another way it would be useful is if your dog goes

on his outrun and he has not seen his sheep and you can tell he isn't going deep enough. You can give him a redirect with the back command--Away Back! and he knows to widen out on his path.

Mona

[Mona Howard]

Another way it would be useful is if your dog goes

on his outrun and he has not seen his sheep and you can tell he isn't going deep enough. You can give him a redirect with the back command--Away Back! and he knows to widen out on his path.

Mona

[Dixie_Girl]

Bill, you are correct! But like the baby says, spit happens!

 

Mona, this gives me something else to consider! Thanks pal, I mean, I really NEED more commands to remember! LOL Seriously, I will check into that and see what happens.

Right now, Jackson is just learning to do the outrun thing and is finally getting that there is something more to this sheep thing than fun and games. He is settling down very nicely. I am happy with him and so is my trainer. Alot will depend on what he does and HOW he does it. But I really do appreciate the ideas!

[Jennifer Glen]

Mona,

I have those flanks on my dog too. I use "keep and get" but those are flanks and not a straight back up which I don't see a purpose for.

Jenny

[Mona Howard]

I agree, I do not have a straight back command

but I could see how even that would be useful at

times. One lady I worked with in Arizona had back

commands that would tell a dog to widen out a little or a lot. I'm way too basic for that but it puts me in awe of what some people can teach their dogs. I'm not the type that can just pick up a new idea, I have to have it pounded into me....

[Bill Fosher]

I can't see how teaching a dog to pen when it doesn't have the right feel for distance off his sheep is anything but asking for trouble. More spit will happen if you push a dog past where he's ready to be than if you work on the basics and then incorporate them into new challenges.

 

Mona, I've always found that it's not so much the command as how I say it that will widen or tighten the dog on a flank. "Waaaaaaay" will produce a wide turn, while "Wayawayaway" will bring him in -- long and low pushes them out, short and sharp pulls them in.

[Mona Howard]

"Mona, I've always found that it's not so much the command as how I say it that will widen or tighten the dog on a flank. "Waaaaaaay" will produce a wide turn, while "Wayawayaway" will bring him in -- long and low pushes them out, short and sharp pulls them in."

 

I have been taught the same thing. Some people I know will use abbreviated commands for short flanks and the full command for deep flanks.

At the pen and you only want a foot or two you would say "Away" and sending the dog on his outrun and a far distance you would say "Awwaaaayyy to Meeee".

 

The back command is useful to cover handler error also. You can teach the dog right but let's say you ask the dog up when you really shouldn't have and the sheep get uptight. Then it is handy to be able to get your dog to release the pressure a step or two.

I am not an open handler, these are just things I have been taught by various people while

they help me train my dogs. Techniques they have used with their own dogs. Mona