tammyinmo Posted March 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 So anyway, can Liberty hitch a ride with anyone between Springfield and St. Louis or therabouts? She's very well behaved overall except for that thing about killing small animals. [/QB]We have eight children at home and she has never attacked them, just animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tammyinmo Posted March 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Originally posted by juliepoudrier:[QB] Thank you for a wonderful post Carol--it was exactly what I was thinking. I certainly wouldn't be taking the long way 'round if one of my dogs suddenly took to killing my chickens. That dog would find out hard and fast that such behavior is unacceptable. If there's a risk of injury to the dog, so be it. That's better than the risk of maiming and death of the livestock and other pets in my opinion. Frankly if the dog were mine, I wouldn't even consider passing it on to someone else (because even if a potential adopter doesn't have livestock, I don't see how you can protect other small animals like kittens, cats, small wildlife, etc.). If I couldn't change the behavior pronto, the dog's life would indeed be forfeit. /QUOTE] If it wasn't for a burn ban in southwest Missouri, she probably would have been shot and cremated the day she bit our cow's udder. The ground is too hard to dig in right now, due to lack of rain and fire is too risky. We tried to let her know hard and fast that the behaviour was unacceptable a long time ago and each time she has gotten loose, but we didn't succeed (obviously) as the behaviour continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Tammy - Maybe you could help us with Liberty's "history" a bit so folks could better understand how this behavior has arisen. You got her as a little pup for the purpose of stock work. What sort of breeding did she come from? Did you ever see her parents working stock and, if you did, were they at all like Liberty in their approach to stock? She's three now - when did this aggressive behavior begin? You mention that she's good on leash but that, when you've let her off the leash, she would take after any small animal nearby. You also use the phrase in your last post "each time she has gotten loose". Now, are you talking about "escaping" her leash, or that you have her confined in some way and she manages to get free (in house, in kennel, on chain, in barn?). I'm not trying to open this discussion to criticism of anything you might have inadvertently done to contribute to her problems - I've got some questions in my mind, trying to figure out how she's gotten this way or if she is just "wired wrong and can't help herself". There is always the possibility that she has a severe temperment flaw, and I don't know if that could be dealt with to ever "make" her a trustworthy dog, on or off the farm. Has she spent a lot of time where she could see the chickens, kitten(s), sheep, or cow(s) but not have access to them (like in the house watching out a window, or on a chain or confined in the barn or in a kennel within sight of the other animals)? A lot of dogs (Border Collies particularly) can become very obsessive about what they can see but can't "do anything about". Cats or stock that "parade around" near the dog that is confined to kennel or by chain, are just tormenting the dog and, when it can get free, watch out! If Liberty can't be reliably rehabilitated (and I sure wouldn't ever want a dog with her history living in my neighborhood, near my stock, cats, etc.), euthanasia is an alternative - you don't have to wait for "digging weather" or the end of the burn ban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tammyinmo Posted March 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Originally posted by Sue R:Tammy - Maybe you could help us with Liberty's "history" a bit so folks could better understand how this behavior has arisen. You got her as a little pup for the purpose of stock work. What sort of breeding did she come from? Did you ever see her parents working stock and, if you did, were they at all like Liberty in their approach to stock? We got her when she was about 8 - ?0 weeks old. Her parents worked cattle. We saw her father working a little bit. Her owner also demonstrated that his dog would herd his cats. No attacking. She's three now - when did this aggressive behavior begin? You mention that she's good on leash but that, when you've let her off the leash, she would take after any small animal nearby. She took down a lamb when she was about 9 - 12 months old. Don't remember exactly. She has the herding instinct and was chasing it, only she went to grab it and took it down to the ground. We had to get her off her. We kept her away from the sheep and hoped she would do better when she got older. You also use the phrase in your last post "each time she has gotten loose". Now, are you talking about "escaping" her leash, or that you have her confined in some way and she manages to get free (in house, in kennel, on chain, in barn?). She is in a kennel. She has gotten out when being fed by children. That is what happened the last time when she took off after our cow. Has she spent a lot of time where she could see the chickens, kitten(s), sheep, or cow(s) but not have access to them (like in the house watching out a window, or on a chain or confined in the barn or in a kennel within sight of the other animals)? A lot of dogs (Border Collies particularly) can become very obsessive about what they can see but can't "do anything about". Cats or stock that "parade around" near the dog that is confined to kennel or by chain, are just tormenting the dog and, when it can get free, watch out! Yes, our chickens roam as do the cats. She has been able to watch them from her kennel. On occasion she did also have view of the sheep and the cow, depending on what field they were in. I didn't know this could be a problem until we watched a border collie training video that said you should keep your dog from ever seeing the livestock. I'm not sure how to accomplish this. I suppose that we could build a wooden fence around a kennel. If Liberty can't be reliably rehabilitated (and I sure wouldn't ever want a dog with her history living in my neighborhood, near my stock, cats, etc.), euthanasia is an alternative - you don't have to wait for "digging weather" or the end of the burn ban. Becca has offered her a new "career" and Liberty probably needs an experienced trainer for this. We are taking her up on this offer. We had a different border collie when we lived in town. When we moved to the country, she was older. After one run in with a rooster, she totally left our chickens alone. She never attacked any animals. We had had cats in town and she was good with cats. So, we know that all border collies are not like Liberty. We don't want to make the same mistakes with another puppy. Where do you keep an outdoor dog, so that it can't see the livestock while not working? Is this always necessary, or is it just necessary while they are young? During this time, should one introduce the animal to the other animals in controlled situations to get the border collie used to cats, chickens, cows, sheep, etc.... when they aren't in a chasing mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 There's a terrific book (umm, or was is a video?) by Derek Scrimegeour about raising puppies to be working stockdogs. If you get in touch with the Knoxes, you'll get the Puppy Raising Lecture from Jack. He can teach you how to make sure your new pup grows up looking to YOU as the boss from Day One, even if you are walking around in the pasture or the barnyard with chickens and cats swarming on every side. But you've got to start early. We'll be doing something similiar with Liberty, but it will take some sharp timing and some pretty intense work. It's going to be boot camp for Liberty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Tammy - If and when you do decide to have another Border Collie, you should heed Rebecca's (as always) excellent advice. Understand how to raise a pup from day one because that pup/dog will be learning every day of its life. You will be providing the teaching whether you realize it or not. Just a little example where I learned the hard way. When I got Skye, I was working at a stable. He would be tethered in the aisle or with me as I cleaned stalls and did turnout. Skye saw moving brooms, rakes, horses, etc., from the very beginning. And, he "fixated" on these moving objects so that you couldn't sweep or rake, or lead a horse without him reacting ("attacking" the rake or broom, and trying to control the horse in unacceptable ways). Now, in my ignorance, I thought that his being exposed to these everyday things of my life would make him at ease and relaxed around them. Quite the opposite - being a Border Collie, with working instincts galore and sensitivity to motion, he became uncontrollable around these things. If I needed to sweep or rake or move a horse, I had to tether him or confine him to an empty stall. What I had done was to take his inborn focus and intensity, and allow them to be channeled to the wrong things, and without me having the experience and control to fix the problem! When I got Celt, I was quite a bit wiser but not wise enough. I would put Celt in a stall or my vehicle when I had to sweep, rake, or move a horse. I put him out of sight from the work I was doing because, to do it within his sight, would have had the same result as when I "allowed" Skye to chase the broom or "work" the horses I was leading. I also made mistakes with Skye that caused him to be less respectful and responsive to me, as much as he was devoted to me. I did much better with Celt and, should I have the opportunity again with another pup or dog, hope to improve on what I have learned with Celt. A Border Collie should never be able to just "watch" the cats, chickens, birds, sheep, cattle, horses, whatever. That dog will "fixate" on what it sees moving, that it can't "control", and once focused like that, I haven't been able to "break" a dog of the habit. Actually some dogs can handle watching the cat (or house rabbit, in Celt's case) because they are self-controlled enough to not do anything inappropriate, but that usually comes with some age, training, and the right temperment. But I'm not saying it's a good thing for a dog to focus on an animal or species that isn't its "stock to work". Why must your dog be "an outside dog"? Our dogs work cattle and live in the house. When they are dirty, no matter what the weather, they get hosed before coming into the house and get rubbed down with an old towel to take off the excess water. A Border Collie by itself in a kennel or on a chain is not a happy dog. Trust me, I don't think all dogs must live in the house but a lone Border Collie is a miserable creature. It wants to be part of the family or pack. I think you can forestall many bad habits by having the dog with you (even if it's crated in the house for some hours at a time because of necessity). I wouldn't want to say to confine a dog to a kennel with a wall around it. I think you could easily wind up with a maladjusted and neurotic dog. I'd vote for it not being an "outside dog" if that (or a lonely stall in a barn) was the alternative. I introduced Celt to horses sooner than I should have. He's not bad like Skye was but he still very much wants to work them. He totally ignores brooms and rakes but he's real excited by the snowshovel (he was a winter puppy - my mistake, I had him out when shoveling the snow). I don't think I'd like to introduce a working Border Collie to anything but the kind of stock it will be working until it is maybe a year old, at a guess. Time to get some of the puppy-ness out of it. As for Liberty taking down that sheep her first time on stock, many "keen" young dogs will grip their first time (or more?) out on stock, but careful handling should improve the situation and resolve that quickly, as long as there isn't a problem with the dog's temperment that can't be overcome. Did you take Liberty to any lessons or clinics so that you could have an expert start her on stock, evaluate her abilities and potential, foresee problems, or give you training advice? If not, that would be a wise move if you were ever to try getting another stockdog of any type. I'm grateful she'll be getting "another chance" with Rebecca (or Karen, was it?). I hope it goes well for all concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyjabo Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Both We gonna tag team her Actually I will be very surprised that if when she gets a chance to actually do something with her drive and instincts she doesn't just quit it all on her own. We have a better situation than the original owner would have--she will be in a totaly new environment so new rules will be alot esier for her to understand and accept. And we are going to let her make use of her instincts instead of control them. And I'll lay odds my timing will be alot better than the owners would have been. Some of my best dogs were frustrated killers-- they just thrived when given a chance to figure out and use their talents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 I don't have the experience but I have faith in both you and Rebecca. What you say makes a lot of sense. Celt has been doing much better lately as I am following along with what I have learned better. Even Megan is showing some improvement and, with her puppymill background, she doesn't have Celt's talent. There's a lot to be said for timing, and that is one of my many great shortcomings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Hi, I know this is an old post, but I am wondering if there was ever an update on how this dog did? I need to know if it is possible to break a dog of killing chickens or if the old saying once a killer always a killer is true. I have just adopted my first BC; 4 1/2 yo NM. I agreed to take him because he has been living on a place with goats & even tho they never worked with him, i was pretty sure he would be a good choice because he had been around them. Well, he has been very good around my goats, but the first night he was here, after putting the goats away, i let him off the leash forgetting that the chickens were still out. he decided they needed herding, too & he caught one & killed it. SInce i was right behind him (he did not respond to me telling him down and stop, he was very intent & fixated on the bird) when it happened, i did a good take down, put him on his back & shook his scruff. (I am thinking this is what someone referred to as reading him the riot act?) told him those were MY chickens & he could not kill them. anyway, i know this was really my fault. i never should have let him off the leash on his first day here. but now i am afraid i don't /won't/can't trust him. he looks at my cat & I am afraid he is going to "get " her, too (even tho he was raised with a yard full of cats). It just makes me nervous. What I would like now is some help/advise on how to deal with this & if there is any hope. If i cant trust him off leash when the chickens are out (whih is every afternoon) then i am afraid i may have to rehome him. So here is my plan & I sure would appreciate any advise: first, keep him away from the goats & the chickens until i know he has bonded with me, understands that i am now his human and responds to my voice commands. second really work on some basic obedience stuff (he knows only the very basics. they really did not spend much time with this poor dog. so i figured some good training is a good way for us to bond & learn to trust each other) third, make sure he gets plenty of exercise. i don't think he even really knows how to play. also i am assuming he is smart enough to know the difference between play & work. i have worked on tennis ball retrieval, it took him a few days but once he understood it was FUN, he had a great time....it was kinda cute to watch him "turn into a dog" I have also been spending a lot of time with him. he was mostly an outside, ignored dog. i have been having him in the house with me, in my bedroom at night & even taken him to work with me. I randomly ask him to sit or down or stay and he does pretty good except with the "come"...he has to go sniff & pee some more before he obliges ( I will work on that with the 20 foot lead) what i am not sure about because i have read conflicting info is whether or not to let him even see the chickens?? before i read that it might not be a good idea, i had taken him over to the coop with me to let them out in the morning & put them away at night; on a leash of course. i told him down & stay & when he started to give them the eye i said "leave it" and he put his head back down....so he seems to be getting it....but again, i am now reading that this might not be a good idea??? that it might be better to just not even let him see them?? and lastly, i do have experience training hunting retrievers, but this is my first herding dog. any advise on good books to read? again, any advise would be appreciated. I really want to give him another chance but i also really dont want to lose any more of my girls. if i need to rehome him it would be best to do that before i get anymore attached. thanks for any words of wisdom you can share Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Sounds like a good trainer is needed for this dog. I hate to think that someone's child might be next. JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I don't think anyone's child is in danger unless there is a great deal left unsaid here. Sadly, Liberty's problem was rather different than what was described online. However, she had as good a six months' run as possible, working sheep, goats and cattle, until we decided that human safety was at risk and sent her to the Rainbow Bridge. What happened to her was a lot more complex than simply high prey drive. But, I will say that very quickly Karen was able to let her walk off leash around stock. Within minutes of being introduced to Karen, she was walking a loose leash for her, without Karen having jerked a leash, yelled, or having done more than walked back and forth and smoke. The smoking is apparently very important. Safety around stock, whether chickens or cattle or anything in between, is all about leadership. Both Liberty and the dog you describe shared this in common - a lack of a connection to people. I think you are on the right track with re-establishing that with your dog. I doubt you'll be able to leave your dog loose and unsupervised where he can get to stock, but that's never really a good idea anyway in my opinion. Since you do have goats, you might want to see whether someone can help you get started training him to work. Once he's learned to channel his instincts correctly, you won't have to worry as much about a situation happening that you can't control. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Hsnrs, In your post are you referring to my newly adopted dog (his name is Bandit) or the dog in the original post? (I believe her name was Liberty). The dog I rescued was raised with children, cats, other dogs & goats. From what I was told from the previous owners, he never had any problems with him. He had never been around chickens before. Do you really think he could be a danger to children??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Respectfully, hsnrs, I haven't seen any association between agression toward children and killing chickens (or even sheep for that matter). I have had a couple dogs that have killed a chicken or duck and absolutely love kids (and my guys aren't even well socialized to children). Lizard, you're doing exactly the right thing. Keep the dog supervised and/or restrained until you have a solid stay and recall. Give a verbal correction if your dog shows any interest in your chickens and then distract them. In many cases, with consistency, this is enough. None of my dogs has killed twice. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmy4ever Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Hey- there is always hope in any situation. I saw a problem like this once. An experianced trainer named Cesar Miliian took care of the problem. He got a chicken and put it next to the dog, and he made the dog lay down. Then, he'd keep pulling the dog down and he jurked him whenever the dog snapped at the chicken. Cesar would also say a scolding sound like, "SCch!" Soon, the dog just laid next to the chicken and didn't touch it. Do the same thing with the cow. If it doesn't work with you doing it- then you should call an experianced trainer to take care of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Hey- there is always hope in any situation. Sadly, this is not true. Except for the hope of peace beyond the Rainbow Bridge. But, just killing chickens is not a death warrant in itself, far from it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 The dog I rescued was raised with children, cats, other dogs & goats. From what I was told from the previous owners, he never had any problems with him. He had never been around chickens before. Do you really think he could be a danger to children??? BC are smart dogs. Every one I've met could tell the difference between a child and a chicken. I would not worry. What I would do though, in your place, is PM juliepoudrier (who posted earlier on this thread but it was a long time ago). She has fancy little chickens and about nine BC - two of which are very young, keen dogs. So I bet she could give you the 411 on teaching BC to leave chickens alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 first, keep him away from the goats & the chickens until i know he has bonded with me, understands that i am now his human and responds to my voice commands.second really work on some basic obedience stuff (he knows only the very basics. they really did not spend much time with this poor dog. so i figured some good training is a good way for us to bond & learn to trust each other) third, make sure he gets plenty of exercise. i don't think he even really knows how to play. also i am assuming he is smart enough to know the difference between play & work. i have worked on tennis ball retrieval, it took him a few days but once he understood it was FUN, he had a great time....it was kinda cute to watch him "turn into a dog" I have also been spending a lot of time with him. he was mostly an outside, ignored dog. i have been having him in the house with me, in my bedroom at night & even taken him to work with me. I randomly ask him to sit or down or stay and he does pretty good except with the "come"...he has to go sniff & pee some more before he obliges ( I will work on that with the 20 foot lead) I think you have a very good handle on where to start. Remember he is a dog with high prey drive and chickens = prey. It's not that he is vicious or anything, but in his dog brain little moving squaky objects are to be chased and killed. It's up to you to teach him otherwise and direct his prey drive toward other things (like the tennis ball). He can be trained to leave them alone, but it will take supervision and time. Do you have a crate or kennel for him? Crating him is the easiest way to keep your animals safe right now. I'd want to be controlling every area of his life right now so he can learn that I am "the boss", but also that all good things in life come from me - food, play, exercise. A crate will help you to do that pretty easily. If he's not with you, he is in the crate. I'd also probably start carrying around treats, or part of his daily kibble and have him on a "nothing in life is free" program for a little while. It will help build a bond and his focus on you. what i am not sure about because i have read conflicting info is whether or not to let him even see the chickens?? before i read that it might not be a good idea, i had taken him over to the coop with me to let them out in the morning & put them away at night; on a leash of course. i told him down & stay & when he started to give them the eye i said "leave it" and he put his head back down....so he seems to be getting it....but again, i am now reading that this might not be a good idea??? that it might be better to just not even let him see them?? I take my dogs along on chore rounds and they do just fine. It takes time and training. IMO it's not that they don't see the animals, it's that they aren't allowed to have the opportunity to fixate on the other animals. Supervision is key, and if your dog isn't trustworthy yet, or you're not going to be able to focus on making sure your dog behaves appropriately around the animals, they shouldn't be going along with you to do chores. But you can still be doing training with him with the animals in the background to work on his focus and response to you. Just remember not to ask to much of him too quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Thanks everyone for the advice about my adopted dog. he has been behaving very well & we are learning to trust and love each other. Unfortunately, i took him to the vet yesterday and found out he is not only positive for heartworm but for Lymes disease as well. I really do not understand why folks can't just give that one little pill once a month. poor boy. i know this is not a trip to the rainbow bridge, but it is more than i signed up for; and financially & dedication wise, i am not in a place in my lfie to deal with a convalescing dog for a few months. Thankfully the previous owner has agreed to take responsibility for his treatment. it breaks my heart, but i will be retuning him to his former owner. it really is amazing how quickly you can become attached to a dog. this has been a sad week for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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