Language

[ryder]

when you are working on stock do you have to use the proper words for the commands or is anything allowed as Ryder is obedience trained do I say the word he doesnt know and than the obedience command and than just keep doing this than drop the obedience command is that the proper way he knows how to down with the word and also with the hand raised I need a good book I have Thomas Longton@Barbara Sykes but their training is with a young dog that knows nothing to start with. Help

[Eileen Stein]

You can use any word you want. If you want to shift from obedience commands to traditional herding commands, the way you describe would probably be the best way to do it. (The dog would fairly quickly anticipate the obedience command when he heard the new word that it always follows.) You COULD continue to use your obedience command to tell the dog to lie down, or you could use a new command that you teach in relation to the obedience command, but if I were you I would forget about the obedience commands altogether and just start with different comands for herding, not relating them at all to obedience commands. The herding commands a dog learns should be meaningful to him in relation to the livestock he's working, not just denoting an action in the abstract. If you start with new commands, you WILL be training him as if he knows nothing to start with. Some trainers like a dog to know nothing but a recall and a correction word/sound when they begin training, others like them to have a "down" command as well, so you could go either way. Don't use hand signals, though -- you want to discourage the dog from looking at you.

 

A few useful training books:

 

Herding Dogs: Progressive Training, by Vergil Holland

 

Lessons from a Stockdog, by Bruce Fogt

 

Talking Sheepdogs, by Derek Scrimgeour

 

The Natural Way, by Julie Simpson

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Early stockdog training isn't at all focused on learning commands anyway. It's all about the dog learning the correct way to react to the stock and where the handler fits in the picture.

[Eileen Stein]

Very true -- I should have thought to mention that.

[zenotri]

Rebecca & Eileeen,

 

I'm wondering if you'd mind expanding on that a little.

 

Vickie

[ryder]

Ryder is smart so teaching him new commands on new stuff would be easy In the book I have it says to teach some of the commands before you start on stock his recall is 100% he listens great so now how do I teach him not to look at me Cathy

[juliepoudrier]

Vickie,

Most folks take a young dog to stock and just let it work and learn to feel the stock and react to their movements before trying to control things with commands. Personally I think teaching commands and using them too early can make a dog more mechanical and more dependent on its handler for all decision making. A young dog that is allowed to work with minimal interference from the trainer will develop a more natural ability to read and control stock, and the confidence to do so, than one that is told from the beginning what to do all the time, IMO. A trainer can use his/her own body pressure to influence the movements of the dog without ever really having to say a word. Later the words can be added so that the dog will connect the command with the action, but in the beginning letting the dog work is the most important thing. And the reason some trainers don't even necessarily want a lie down is because, especially with novice handlers, it becomes a crutch the handler uses to control things. I saw this not too long ago. Instead of backing up (running backward) to allow the young dog to bring the sheep to the handler once she was on balance behind them, the handler kept lying her down so she wouldn't run the sheep over him. The result was a frustrated youngster that was blowing into her sheep. By just staying quiet and backing up, the handler was able to get the youngster to settle behind her stock and actually bring them to him. No yelling, no lie down, nothing but nice quiet work.

 

(Also, if you happen to have a dog with a lot of eye, repeated commands, and especially repeated stopping, will only exacerbate the eye. In such a case you want to keep the dog up and moving--flowing around the stock.)

 

Funny story about this way of starting a dog. When Twist was about 6 months old, maybe a couple of months older, I took her to the farm of the man who owns her sire. He put some sheep in a small paddock/field for us and I let her work. Well the sheep were crafty and soon decided they had had enough of Twist. In line with the fence was a water trough that could be accessed by stock from either side. Except that one side bordered the driveway. And on the other side of the driveway was an *extremely* steep drop to a creek below. The fence above the trough was lacking a board. Soon the sheep's intention was evident, and Tom told me to quick flank Twist around to stop them. Only Twist didn't have any flank commands, working only off my body pressure. So of course I couldn't flank her around to stop the sheep from escaping through the trough. With Twist hot on their heels. And a precipitous drop just feet away on the other side of the driveway. Fortunately, the sheep turned and raced down the driveway, my pup still in hot pursuit. A friend was back at the van, closer to the house, and was able to intercept the pup before she raced the sheep to the back 40. But I wouldn't go back and change anything--that little pup learned to think for herself and work problems out (okay pursuit through the water trough wasn't perhaps the best option, but at least she didn't take them over the cliff). The result is that I have a very natural dog who thinks for herself.

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

Cathy, most trainers will advise against training "watch me" style obedience before a dog is taken to sheep, for that very reason. The saving grace in a case like yours is that sheep are so fascinating to a good dog that all that obedience training usually flies out the window when he first goes to sheep and turns on.

 

Don't be horrified if that happens -- it's a good thing. The beginnings of stockdog training, as Julie and Becca have said, are not about obeying commands. You want to put the dog in situations which call forth his inherited instinct to contain and control sheep, and have him get the feel of how to do this correctly -- how what he does affects what the sheep do. So much of good stockdog work is the "how" of what the dog does, not just that the dog does what you tell him to. So only after you've developed your dog's knowledge and experience of proper sheep handling to a certain level do you put commands to what he's doing, and work on developing a mutual understanding of what those commands should mean in all different situations.

 

It's hard to explain. Obedience is very important in a good stockdog, but it doesn't come first. The basics of how your dog approaches, moves and contains sheep come first. I've heard it said, "First, the dog must gain control of the sheep, then you must gain control of the dog." When you're managing stock with a good trained stockdog, it's a real partnership, with the dog contributing his expertise and you contributing yours -- not merely the dog doing what you tell him to do. That's different from obedience or agility -- the only dogsport I know that's similar in that respect is tracking.

 

Yes, it's hard to explain . . . Hope that helps, Vickie.

[ryder]

thank you yes it does help and thankyou for taking the time to answer thanks cathy

[zenotri]

Sorry to hijack your thread Ryder...I'm just starting out too

 

Thank you everyone, that makes perfect sense. Now I just need to find someone close by who I can go to weekly who thinks the same way.

 

I had an experience on Saturday that I think illustrates your point. I was waiting to take my pup in the field for the 1st time when a guy came along & told me NO, you don't go in the field till I have seen your dog. So we went to the round pen. He was pretty impressed with her but said she wasn't ready for the field & then took us into the field to prove it. Actually I thought she worked exceptionally well in the field considering it was her 1st time, she widened out a bit, was fairly steady & kept the sheep together. He thought she was still too close, moving too fast and had no stop.

 

He then asked me to put her away & went to get his pup the same age. He worked her around the sheep at quite a distance & stopped her regularly around the clock, at least twice in each circle.

 

The first word that popped into my head when I saw her was "mechanical". She didn't seem to have much feel for the sheep at all and while her obedience was impressive, I didn't see any natural responses to what the sheep were doing.

 

He told me that if I just spend a few weeks in the round yard with my pup, stopping her & teaching her flanks, she could be as good as his pup in no time.

 

I just smiled...