Circle C Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Well, I'm just getting into breeding and training BC's. I just got my secod pup, a female. I have a 3 yr old male now. Hopefully I can start a breeding program in the near future. My casper dog knows all his basic commands (here, stay, down, ect), and he will go to stock. I have been working him a little, but nothing too complicated. I was wondering how you go about teaching them their directions (come by, away, etc), and how you go about getting them to run out behind the stock....my dog wants to run straight at them. He wont go around them unless i do, and keep him w/ me. Any tips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Originally posted by CaseyoLee:Well, I'm just getting into breeding and training BC's. I just got my secod pup, a female. I have a 3 yr old male now. Hopefully I can start a breeding program in the near future. You had better get your flame suit on right away because you are probably going to hear from a number of folks on this board about unknowledgeable and inexperienced folks breeding Border Collies (unless they are just too tired of going over this again and again). Border Collies should be bred for the work. Period. Health, soundness, and temperament are considerations. Unless you have some years of experience with working border collies, with proving them through Open level trialling or equivalent farm/ranch work, with researching pedigrees, and with understanding complimentary bloodlines, you really don't have any business even contemplating a "breeding program". Dreaming of being capable of having one some day is another matter. We can all dream. My casper dog knows all his basic commands (here, stay, down, ect), and he will go to stock. I have been working him a little, but nothing too complicated. I was wondering how you go about teaching them their directions (come by, away, etc), and how you go about getting them to run out behind the stock....my dog wants to run straight at them. He wont go around them unless i do, and keep him w/ me. Any tips? You are talking about "a breeding program in the near future" and your dog doesn't even have a natural outrun (a hallmark of the working Border Collie) and you have no idea how to train him. You need to get instruction from a competent trainer, who will train you and your dog. Responsible Border Collie breeders breed "the best to the best", and that only after considering whether or not the dogs are compatible in bloodlines, working abilities, and health, soundness, and temperament. A proven dog is a combination of inherent talent and drive, and proper training to maximize those potentials. How can you possibly consider breeding your dogs when you don't even appear to understand the basics of natural working Border Collie instinct and training? Please, stay on the boards; read and learn; find a competent trainer; and when you have been successfully and consistently running your dogs at USBCHA Open level for a while, then you might be ready to contemplate a breeding program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle C Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 I didn't say I wanted to breed top trial dogs. I have been breeding collies for some years and am getting into border collies now. I don't care if my dogs are spectacular herders....and I think you took my breeding program the wrong way. I'm goint to breed them for me, b/c I enjoy it. I'm not breeding them b/c i want top trial dogs. I could careless if my dogs herd. It's just something I thought I would get some tips on. But obviously this isnt the right site for that. I didn't come here to hear that "i have no business breeding BC's." I have a lot of years under my belt training dogs and I think it's time to step up to somethimg more comlicated. I felt disrespected on this site. I'm not your everyday "get a BC and screw it up" person. In the future you might want to be a little less disrespectful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Sorry if I came off real crabby, but this is an issue that has been discussed over and over on this board. A search on the topic of "breeding" will result in more threads than you might want to read, but reading them may just open your eyes. Folks on this board are very sensitive to the breeding of Border Collies. They are very much against puppy mills, back-yard breeders, breeding to "make a little money" or "because everyone likes my dog and wants one just like her" or "because she's the most wonderful dog in the world", conformation or sport breeding, etc. Thousands of Border Collies are euthanized in shelters annually in this country alone. Fortunate ones are removed from shelters and find forever homes through rescue. There is a crisis in this country of Border Collies that are not bred for the work and the improvement of the working Border Collie breed and/or unsuitably homed. Check out the rescue pages or Petfinder if you don't believe me. Please do not contribute to this crisis by becoming a "back-yard breeder". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Originally posted by CaseyoLee:I didn't say I wanted to breed top trial dogs. I have been breeding collies for some years and am getting into border collies now. I don't care if my dogs are spectacular herders....and I think you took my breeding program the wrong way. I'm goint to breed them for me, b/c I enjoy it. I'm not breeding them b/c i want top trial dogs. I could careless if my dogs herd. And this is a major part of the entire issue - why are you breeding anything (Border Collies, Quarter Horses, whatever) if not to IMPROVE the breed? The Border Collie is a working dog, not an ornament. If you are going to breed, what are you planning on doing with the pups you produce? Or, are you keeping them all simply because you are breeding for your own "enjoyment"? Where will those "extra" pups wind up? Shelters? On a chain in a backyard? Out in a stall in a barn? In good forever homes (hopefully neutered for a number of reasons)? Wandering loose on the roads? I meant no disrespect for you personally - this issue is bigger than you or me. It is about the perpetuation and improvement of one of the few "real" dogs left in the world today - a smart, tough, intelligent, biddable working dog, the working Border Collie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle C Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 I very well plan on finding a trainer and taking lessons. And I'm not going to be a back-yard breeder. I realize how many border collies there are out there and I realize how big the issue is. And when I mentioned about breeding program in the near future....near future is in the next 5-6-7 years. I just thought maybe I'd get some basic tips on training. But so far I've heard nothing but criticizm, so it gets me a little on edge. I have been looking for a trainer, but I haven't found one close to home yet. ANy help in that area would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Okay, let's call a cease-fire and get down to business. Where are you in PA? I am asking because I am in WV, and my friend and I travel to VA for training about once a month. I also have some Border Collie friends near the Carlisle area who might know of some competent trainers in their area. There are some really good trainers in certain areas of PA. Give me an idea where you are located (in general) and I will try to give you some contacts, if I can. There are also some good books that might help you with your dog's outrun, and provide lots of training information. I will admit that books are great but actually working with a trainer is better, I believe. Lessons from a Stockdog - by Bruce Fogt Talking Sheepdogs - by Derek Scrimgeour (brief, wonderfully illustrated, great pictures) The Natural Way - by Julie Simpson (a lot of text, lots of illustrations, lots of photos, very comprehensive) The Shepherd's Pup - VHS or DVD - by Derek Scrimgeour (excellent video on training a pup from the beginning - good also for beginning a dog right) A Hill Shepherd Trains His Sheepdogs (I think) - VHS - by Derek Scrimgeour (also excellent, shorter than the puppy video) This is just a sampling of sources on training. Border Collies In Action is a fabulous resource for folks interested in herding. They have lots of books, videos, supplies, etc., and fun stuff, also. If you are not located where you can train with someone capable, you might very well look into one or more of these other resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle C Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Alright, sounds good lol. Im in northwest PA. About 45 min south of erie, or 2 hrs north of Pittsburgh. I can't really drive hours for a trainer, so I hope there is one close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 I don't really know anyone up that way. How about posting a new topic under the Training Discussion to see if anyone knows of any trainers in that direction? I do know of an all-breed trainer within a couple of hours of you, who offers occasional "intro to herding" clinics that are affordable. I don't know that I would recommend her for long-term training but she is entertaining and offers a nice intro clinic. Someone on these boards might be able to point you in the right direction. Good luck in finding someone, and good luck with your dogs. I did see their pictures and they are beautiful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle C Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Thanks. I did post a topic for a trainer in PA so hopefully some one can help me out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Good luck! Let's hope it works out well for you and the good dogs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Also Casey I am the one that emailed you on how to post a picture. I looked at your website and I see you have one dog that is double registered with ABCA and AKC. The AKC, well, useless, worse than useless to a working border collie. Deregister your dog with AKC and start herding. After a few years you will see what kind of dogs you have and then decide if you have the class of dog that deserves breeding. Breeding because you enjoy it, just creates more dogs that probably don't get spayed and neutered and make more puppies. Caroline It is a bit different sometimes with horses because of the cost involved up front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle C Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 I think spay/neuter contracts on your puppies are a good idea and I plan on putting them on my future puppies. That and selling them to working homes only is another option. And my female actually isnt AKC registered YET and after all the akc debate i've read on this site, I think I changed my mind on getting her registered w/ akc. I had the papers ready to send, but i don't think its a good idea now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 I've been involved with Border Collies for (eek) close to ten years now. I never considered getting into breeding when I got into it because at that time the vast majority of the Border Collie people I knew, just took it for granted that you didn't breed dogs that didn't work hard on farms and refine their skills on the Open trial field. So although I'm a novice in peer level, I totally stand with "old-timers" in my mental set about how Border Collies should be bred. Now, with that said, let's get down to how the Border Collie was developed and maintained as the dog it is today. You like them or you wouldn't have invested in one, right? What attracted you to them? I can guarantee you that however you answer that question, it was the particular, very special type of selection process that this breed has been subjected to for many generations, that produced that characteristic. Go ahead, try me. So what was that selection process? Border Collies are defined by how they work livestock, not anything else. They are, very simply, the breed that shows consistent competence on what non-Border Collie people rightly call "Border Collie trials". That didn't happen by accident - those trials were developed to shape a particular type of herding dog and are still used to judge whether each generation still lives up to those standards. So why would you continue that tradition? Because the work is the breed standard. Would you breed a Collie with a bad temperament? Or a Collie with a badly shaped head or a weak topline? Or a mismarked Collie? Would you breed tiny Great Danes or huge Chihuahuas? What would you think of someone who WOULD? In the same way, it is not in the best interests of the breed to FAIL to subject each generation to the Border Collie breed standard - the Open trial. No, you don't have to be a trial winner - simple competance is sufficient if your dog has something to offer in terms of talent that appears better on the farm or interesting genetics (pedigree). You can, of course do whatever you want - but you will consider honoring the breed's tradition if you are interested in producing dogs that will really work and not going down the road of the sheltie, corgi, and (yes) Collie, in terms of working ability. Oh, to answer your question about commands - check out the pictures at http://bordercollie.heatherweb.com/cgi-bin...ic;f=2;t=000981 Patrick typically uses three commands: "Shhh" (gather/flank), "Doug" (stop what you're doing), and "Lie down" (stop, actually used a bit too much). He gets ragged on at trials because he forgets to use the more advanced commands that Doug actually has. Working a dog is not about training it to run where you tell it to. It's all about bringing out the natural ability of the dog, its natural sense to control the stock in a certain way, and only interfering when you ask something against the natural instincts (or when the dog is incorrect). At very advanced levels it becomes more of an obedience test but if the natural abililties weren't there, the dog couldn't get that far. I once watched a dog of Denise's (Zeke, I think), peform an entire Nursery course, and win I believe, without a single flank command. That's a 325 yard gather, pushing the sheep in a triangle-shaped course with about 100 yards on each leg and tiny freestanding gates to aim for, ending in a freestanding pen. If you want to preserve that kind of instinct, and the breed characteristics that go with it, you will sit back and learn a bit more before plunging into breeder mode. By the way, this year I bought the first bitch pup I MAY end up breeding. If I do breed her I will have been in this breed for twelve years and I will still be tremendously ignorant. I'll make up for that with some serious mentoring, at least I hope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borderco1 Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 www.littlehats.net is a great place for you to go and read about the basics. They also have trainers listed. They have two listed in PA. Listen to everything the wise border collie people say, I am just as new as you to sheepherding though I have no breeding plans at all. I have learned more on this board about working border collies and I have had the breed my whole life. And as someone that wishes I could do more time wise for rescue, but does give a lot of money, really consider your choice on breeding. Best of luck to you and your dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle C Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Thanks for all the info everyone. This topic got off to a rough start, but it's all better now . Maybe I won't get into breeding at all, I don't know. I would like to get some "real" training on my male and I have an 8 week old pup that will need training soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 "...questions about our horses, dogs, or upcoming litters of puppies please email... " Casey, I'm assuming this quote from your webpage is in reference to your 8 week old bitch pup, who happens to be listed as ABCA/AKC. You might want to update your webpage since you are not planning on registering AKC. It might be a bit premature to talk about upcoming litters of puppies when your pup is just a baby herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle C Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 haha! i havent finished it yet. We have a collie due in a couple weeks. Little confusion there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 You've definitely got some time to look around you and decide what direction you are going to go in. Don't rush into anything, including sheep (though as many here have discovered, working with sheep can be like a hard drug - irresistable and lifechanging). The working Border Collie world is a whole 'nother culture from the one you are familiar with, in collies. Even working collies depend heavily on the conformation culture to set their standards, with working as sort of frosting on the cake. It is completely the opposite here. In fact conformation plays no role at all in the selection of dogs for breeding. Everything depends on the dog's ability to work like a Border Collie. Frankly it takes a long time to start to understand what that is. Keep your mind open, however, and you come to know the magic of a dog that is an equal working partner rather than just another pretty face. From there who knows what will happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle C Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 I agree. My Casper dog has no conformation what-so-ever lol. His front legs are slightly crooked and his toes point out a bit, but I know he is going to be one mean herding machine w/ the right training. I could careless about the conformation aspect of it. I just really like the breed. I like collies, but BC's are way smarter and way cooler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.