WTMcVey Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Hello, I am currently training my first border collie to work (17 months). She knows come-by, away to me, there, down, that'll do, and a few other commands. She has so much natural ability and such a sense of balance and is so willing to please but I have one little problem I can't get the kinks worked out of. I am using "Back Off" as a command when I want her to turn and go straight away from the sheep. She will turn away but she usually veers to one side or the other, whichever way puts her in better balance.Any suggestions on how I can correct it? Also, I've been considering starting to use a whistle? Any sugggestions on what kind to get and where to get it? Thanks, Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 I am STRONGLY against teaching a "back off". You are just begging for a turn tail, for which you will get whacked mightily on points at any USBCHA trial. I believe the guidelines call for a maximum of 10. Most judges would be longing to take off at least 15 each time. Give your dog credit for doing EXACTLY the right thing. If you want to teach her an "out" or a "keep", that is a wider come bye and away (open out at least 90 degrees from the sheep at the beginning of the flank and maintain that distance), that's fine. Just make sure you are putting the pressure on in such a way as not to induce a turn tail. A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayflower Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Travis, Welcome to herding! As for whistles, try this site: http://www.bordercollies.com I purchased one of their hand carved buffalo horn whistles and find the sound is a much richer sounding whistle than my silver/aluminum type whistle. The buffalo horn one is a little thicker than the other though so that took a bit of getting used to at first. Personally I would avoid the plastic ones, but I know people like them as well. As for ordering things through Border Collies In Action, they have been great. Turn around time is good. Have fun learning to whistle and remember to not practice around your dog. I spent many a time whistling in my car on my commute to work. Hope this helps, Donna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 PS Travis, if you're still determined to teach the "get back", there is a section in Vergil's book on how to teach it. Involves a long narrow alleyway of some kind, like in a barn. You want to get between the dog and the sheep and intimidate her into turning right away. The narrow width of the area will ensure that she doesn't flank off in response to your pressure. I don't like it myself for the reasons stated. I NEVER want my dog to break off contact with the sheep completely but rather would prefer to teach him/her to ease off the pressure by flanking off, turning his/her head, lying down, etc. I should also add that in order to manage this release of pressure effectively, I train the dog not to barrel right into the sheeps' fight zone so there is still room to manouevre, like at the pen for example. A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTMcVey Posted October 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Thanks to blackacre and donna for the replies. I'll work on that. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Ok Andrea I want more specifics on teaching the wider flanks. Are you giving the new command while putting pressure on the dog to drive it back but a little off the pivot point so it goes back then flanks? also what commands do you use? I use a Montana light whistle. I bought one of the horn whistles because I thought it would taste better. I however have a very large mouth and had trouble keeping the horn whistle in it. I have learned to get used to having the steel whistle clenched in my teeth. Kevin Brannon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Hi Kevin, Yes, I guess you could call it a new command, but maybe a refinement of an existing command would be more accurate. The danger is that once your dog learns the wider flank, the tendency is to let its unique characteristic ie wideness, slide. Pretty soon the dog just regards keep and out as nothing more than different words for away and come bye. The way I was taught to teach the command is to put the sheep in a corner or against a fence. Imagine a line bisecting the corner. You are in one quadrant, the dog is in the other. STAY IN YOUR QUADRANT. If you cross over into the dog's quadrant while you are applying pressure, you are in danger of teaching a turntail, because as you put pressure on the dog, it will want to turn away and flip back to the other side to cover the pressure. Use the usual means of applying pressure, ie advancing towards the dog threateningly, using some phase like "What are you doing in there!". The pressure should be applied at the shoulder, not in front of the shoulder, not behind the shoulder. Much like you would widen a dog out on an outrun in fact. As soon as the dog gives, give him the flank, adding the new word ie "KEEP away", should you be in the left hand quadrant as you face the corner. The dog should not be going BACK and then flanking, it should be breaking off at greater than 90 degrees (where is that pesky degree symbol?) and maintaining or even increasing the distance from the sheep on the flank. Then WALK THE DOG UP. This is important, you don't want the dog to think that you are correcting it for walking up on sheep or engaging sheep. Then step into the other quadrant and repeat in reverse to teach the come out. Clear as mud? A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete Posted October 10, 2003 Report Share Posted October 10, 2003 Thanks Andrea, That is what I was looking for and I did understand it. I always think of the shoulder as a pivot point and use that when applying pressure to move the dog back or around stock. I have a very pushy dog that tends to creep in on his flanks and an added command to back him off pressure some would be very helpful. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skd Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 Wouldn't the "back off" command, described as "when I want her to turn and go straight away from the sheep", cause a loss of contact? If I'm understanding the description correctly, that would be called "turned tail" in my area of the country. Big no no. Wondering if the need for a back off would be eliminated by ensuring that the dog understands clean flanks. Just a thought from a beginner. My thought when first confronted with this dilemna was to teach the dog to walk backwards. The trainer didn't laugh out loud, God Bless Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 Okay, here's a different take on the concept. Suppose you are in a small pen and loading a chute and you've asked the dog to walk up to push the sheep into the opening. Once you have your sheep where want them (and there may still be some in the pen if you didn't laod them all in the chute) and you then want the dog to back off and release the pressure, what do you do? In such a context I have used "get back" and the dog either backs up or turns to release pressure. I have never used the command in any other context (well,except at the back door maybe). Do you think that the dog understands the context? I've never had any fear of her actually turning tail at a trial, but then I don't anticipate using the "get back" command at a trial but only in such a working situation at home. (BTW, the dog has flank commands and different commands if I absolutely want a square flank). Thoughts? Doc, are you asking for a response for use in a situation as above? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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