speeding up downs

[sheepish]

Hi, I am a novice handler with a young dog who is doing quite well. He downs reliably, on and off balance, but he commonly takes a few steps after the command. He does the same thing with 'there' on the drive. This often puts him out of position, requiring another flank. A friend suggested I overcome this by telling him a little early, but I have enough timing problems without calculating that extra yard! Any training tips on speeding this up would be greatly appreciated.

Jill

[Bill Fosher]

I might be inclined to work on this away from stock a little bit initially to try to get a better sense of what's going on. If he's moving at a high rate of speed, he may actually be stopping as quick as he can, in which case you need to follow your friend's advice.

 

If he's cheating and taking those two or three steps because he can get away with it, you have to make it so that he can't get away with it.

 

When he's not on sheep and is just running and playing, tell him to lie down and see what happens. If he takes about the same number of steps that he does when he's working, chances are that he's trying to stop on sheep as well, but simply doesn't have the braking power.

 

If he's cheating -- and I suspect that's the case here -- you need to start to insist that lie down means lie down right now right where you are.

 

Tell him to lie down, and if he doesn't stop instantly, go through the sheep to him and make him lie down. I've seen one trainer who will pick the dog up and put him back where he was told to lie down. I don't know if that makes any difference or not, but he has some results to argue for it. The main thing is that he loses the sheep if he doesn't stop when you tell him to.

 

You need to be very careful in this procedure, because you don't want the dog to think that he's done wrong by lying down. As you progress, you'll probably get to the point where you're just taking a step forward after you say "lie down." As soon as he gives to you, back off. Timing is critical in this venture, and you also have to develop the ability to keep your eyes on your dog as sheep speed past you.

 

Obviosly, all this work is done up close. There's no point in trying to work on a down when the dog is 200 yards away.

[cgt]

I can't add much to Bill's advice on enforcing the down. I wanted to comment on the idea of giving the "there" command a little early to compensate for those extra steps since I played a similar game for a while.

 

I used to do this early command thing when turning one of my young dogs in on a flank (with a "there" command) during driving. She would either be too excited and not quite "feeling her sheep", or she would be wanting to flank around to a spot nearer to the sheep's heads. Either way, she liked to take those few extra steps before turning in. I started giving the "there" a little early to compensate. Of course, as you say, things are hard enough without having to calculate the early command all the time. And it never worked that well anyway. It was pointed out to me by a "Big Hat" that I was certainly not improving her feel for the sheep wth this handling method, and I was probably messing her up and maybe making her more mechanical. He told me to shorten up the distance when driving, flank the dog, and turn her in precisely when I saw the sheep's heads shift, indicating that her flank had had the desired effect. Don't worry about the actual line the sheep end up taking, just get the dog to turn in when the sheep respond to the flank. Of course, she would generally take a few extra steps. I had to go out and enforce things, much as Bill discussed. Over and over and over. Soon I only had to say "there" and maybe take a step toward her or make a little verbal correction and the dog would turn in. Eventually she became pretty reliable (but not quite perfect) on the "there". He said that the main thing was that the dog would be noticing that the "there" always came when the sheep responded to the flank. These dogs do love to anticipate things, and eventually the dog will see the sheep react to the flank and she will be just dying to turn in. Moreover, the dog will become much more sensitive to its effect on the sheep during a flank. My subsequent experience confirmed this advice.

 

As usual, I spewed too many words. The drill was to flank the dog and give the "there" as soon as the sheep respond to the flank. Enforce the "there" as needed. Never mind any other issues (lines, pace, etc.) as you work on this one. You'll have to do it a lot, I expect.

 

As I re-read this, it seems that my advice looks pretty darn obvious. Sometimes that means it is The Truth. Sometimes it means the advice was trivial. Oh well.

 

I hope this helps, or at least does not hurt.

 

charlie torre

[G_Davis]

I think this subject is a little tricky, because like others have said, it depends on the reason for not downing immediately upon command. And there are many different philosophies of handling, different goals, or different ways of reaching the goals.

 

What I mean is this -- one of the reasons I've seen a dog not down precisely when told all the time is that it knows it's not in the right position, and it will do the down as soon as it gets there. Sometimes the dog is correct, and the handler is incorrect. So this is the tricky part for me, more difficult than anticipating and giving a command early to get the down where you want it. How do you remain open to the possibility that the dog may be correct, and make use of it's ablility in a team effort, and at the same time accomplish instant & unquestioning taking of commands?

 

And this brings in the differing philosophies of training & handling. Some people want absolute control and more mechanical, others have a looser style. Some people are in a bigger hurry than others to get their dogs to a certain level -- sometimes out of necessity. I don't think either method is in itself necessarily right or wrong -- just different.

 

I'm certainly not saying that dogs don't cheat and need to be corrected, and I'm not saying they don't form bad habits, or have trouble stopping sometimes. I'm just mentioning another reason I've seen for those "extra steps".

 

For me, it is important to gain a thorough understanding of balance and all the various factors that can affect balance -- which by definition includes understanding off balance and the things that influence it -- before deciding whether I'm correct or my dog is correct. Does this make any sense? I very much desire my dog's input and contribution, thinking for itself, independent of what I may be thinking. And walking that fine line between looseness and mechanical is a trick of balance in itself.

 

I guess I just believe that things involving training & commands are things you can usually get back if you lose them, but the things that come from instinct & natural ability -- the things that can't be taught -- are not easily regained if squelched. So I probably err way to the side of looseness until I'm more confident in my own ability.

[sheepish]

Thanks for the responses. I do work him on his downs off sheep. Intensely sometimes just before we go to sheep,and that helps. I do think he is 'cheating' and think that he finds it fun to fix the problems he created. Often I think he is saying 'I told you so', so yes, I may be the one who is wrong. The bottom line is, I have a line in mind and it doesn't work out if he doesn't stop when I tell him so. The speed he is traveling is a definite factor, sometimes he is flat out running and braking time is a factor. He will usually respond to a steady if I give it near the top of the outrun, or before a drive flank. Always on the fetch or when holding a line on the drive. His flanks are naturally square and he only slices when he thinks I'm wrong, or if the sheep are being nutty. I have wild shetlands, so the latter is frequent:) He was a star tonight and my friend here to help me said 'what was wrong with that?' so he can do it right, I'd just like him to do it right every time. Wouldn't we all. Ok, could one of you very talented folks just fly to Alaska and help me with my dog? I'll put you up and take you fishing.....Hee hee

Jill

[sheepish]

I might add that he has been having trouble in the last weeks, stopping at the right place on top of the outrun. I've watched and it seems he stops at 1'oclock, no matter which way I send him. (with no commands) This affects the lift as it would the perfect outrun, short on the away side and overrun on the comebye. I've never had to tell him where to stop before, he always stopped himself right. This all came about when I started driving and asking for off balance stops and inside flanks. Could this be a temporary setback? He tried a crossover tonight the first he's ever offered me. He's been such a nice guy, I don't want to ruin him.

Jill

[Bill Fosher]

If you're seeing the dog stop at the same spot and you're working in the same place, he might be stopping in the right place. Do the sheep lift toward your feet when he comes onto them from 1 o'clock? If so, he's right.

 

If he's doing it other places as well, it could simply be a bad habit that he's gotten into. I'd say you need to work up closer with him and do some balance work -- walking backwards while he holds the sheep to you.