blackacre Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 OK, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm ready for something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. I would like to square off one of my dogs' flanks without taking too much out of him. He is inclined to push too hard on the drive and doesn't like to stop, although he will take a 'time'. However, unless I insist on a stop, he will slash his flanks something fierce. Even with a stop he will not square off reliably. What training exercize do you use? How do you ensure that you do not lose the walk up as a consequence? Dog is four years old, came trained, is not weak. Andrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Me, I like the long line technique which I learned from Bobby Daziel. Works great. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 A natural method for helping this is to have him drive sheep that are wanting to break back. For instance, use him to push the sheep off when you feed grain or separate a ewe from its lambs or visa versa and put them right behind where he's pushing them away. They learn to square off correctly in these situations because the sheep will get away if they don't. You're tapping into to a major instinct to help you correct a problem. This will normally be a more effective way to teach a dog the right way to do things. Otherwise, I would try to get him to give a little more ground at the end of his flank by walking with him and calling his name to get him to just barely come off them. I've had a few like this and if you want them to learn to flank on proper contact, you don't want to fight them too much to give ground. They want to stay "on" the sheep - too much. If you just ask them to give up a little contact at a time, they'll be more inclined to comply as they feel more comfortable and trust that you aren't trying to take the sheep away from them. If you insist on the perfect flank in your mind, and try to force it, it may result in either them going completely off contact (I've seen this a lot with this type of dog) or they become more tense and fight you because they think you're trying to take the sheep away from them. A wise Irishman, Simon Mosse, once said to me something to the effect of, don't worry about what the flanks *look* like. Worry about whether they're appropriate for the particular sheep they're working at the time. JMHO Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Pam, tell me more about Bobby D's technique. Are you behind the dog or to one side? Do you combine with voice correction or let the rope do the talking? Denise, I like the idea of using the pressure of the sheep wanting to break back to get him to give. Smart. You mention getting him to give ground at the end of his flank. Actually, I think I would like him to break off better at the beginning of the flank (without turning right away), but then re-engaging in a positive manner at the end of the flank. BTW, I don't think he is the type of dog you mention that would get wider and wider but I do have concerns about not giving him the idea that walking up is bad. A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Denise's method works well, unless the dog tends to cut one or more from the group, then the chase can be on, much depends on how tight the dog flanks and how strong his heading tendencies are etc. Ad for Bobby's technique, you are initially behind the dog, line is taught (great if the dog is actually pulling the line). The line is used to guide the dog into a square flank. If you are walking at a right angle to the dirrection the sheep are moving, the dog will be 'pulled' into a square flank. Initially no directional commands are given--you are simply showing the dog the desired move (shaping it), and once the dog starts to offer it, you give the flank. Once the dog is driving, you can walk parallel to him while he is driving. then give the flank. If the dog cuts, be prepared and lash out (not trying to hit the dog) with a lunging whip--this one can really scare the dog, so the amount of pressure from the whip needs to be tailored to the dog. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Originally posted by Pam Wolf:Denise's method works well, unless the dog tends to cut one or more from the group, then the chase can be on, much depends on how tight the dog flanks and how strong his heading tendencies are etc. Pam Well, this is not the issue, inasmuch as the dog is well versed in driving and perfectly comfortable with it. It is really a question of maintaining a straight line, as he pushes the sheep sllightly off line as soon as he starts to flank, which usually means having to give him a flank the other way to straighten up the line. Result is a zig zag drive. On very light sheep he can be held back and the slice will not have as much of an effect but on heavier sheep the effect is magnified since he is much closer to them.A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 One of the great things about the long line for driving is that you can help 'show' the dog how to maintain a straight line while driving, simply by guiding the dog to be in the correct place in the correct manner. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Andrea wrote; >You mention getting him to give ground at the end of his flank. Actually, I think I would like him to break off better at the beginning of the flank (without turning right away), but then re-engaging in a positive manner at the end of the flank.< The "name calling" can be used at the begining of the flank as well. This technique was shown to me years ago by Tommy Wilson on Molly right as I started running her in Open. I understood what he was showing me but lacked the skill at the time to do it like I should have. I think I could do it better now if I had her again as a young dog. Basically, what you're trying to do is to get the dog off the sheep a little by saying its name. I don't mean physically off, just a bit of its attention on you. Then you can give the flank in such a way as to not increase the tension in the dog. IMO, many times unsquare flanks are not from the dog failing to feel the sheep but from tension. Ease the tension and the proper flanks just happen. The tension is just covering up the natural. Find a way to uncover the natural in your communication with the dog. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Ditto on tight flanks from tension. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.S Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 I tried quite a few things to get my dog to stop slicing his flanks on the drive. One thing that worked well for me was to give the flank and when he sliced it, stop him and go out facing him and tell him to get back. Now when he starts slicing (he forgets in his excitement) I'll stop him and when I flank him the 2nd time he'll square out really nice. I'm hoping eventually he'll just square automatically. JES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 A couple of points about the long-line method. The line has to be *really* long -- like 80 or 100 feet -- and really light so the dog doesn't even know it's there until he feels the tug. Poly baling string worked pretty well. Having said that, I think Denise has hit on the best way to "fix" flanks: help the dog get its head right and the flanks will come right as well. As she indicated, it's easier said than done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_Davis Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 I would only add one thing from my deep well of inexperience, and it comes because I had some similar problems & concerns & questions while working with a well-respected trainer/handler. He would say don't worry about losing the walk-up, work on what you need to work on -- you can get it back if you need to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E.S Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 "or sometimes you have to sacrifice one thing to get another, then go back and get the first thing back again." JES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted May 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 JES, It usually works that way, doesn't it. A well respected handler once told me: "first get them to do it right, then get them to enjoy it." A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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