JBR Posted April 4, 2003 Report Share Posted April 4, 2003 Hi all, I'm new here, but certainly enjoying the wealth of information. My question is...I have 2 professionly trained BC's that I use for turnback dogs. I can work them with no problem. I would like to start TRYING to train my next generation. I have a year old male, and wanted to know what is the best stock to start him on - sheep or goats? And, maybe the reasoning behind the decision, only because I'm tring to learn. Also, what size pen do you recommend to start out in? Thanks so much for any help that you can give! JBR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted April 4, 2003 Report Share Posted April 4, 2003 IMO goats tend to 'act' more like cattle. I start most of my dogs on goats. But beware, if the goats are adult and not dog broke they can be a bit of a challenge. I personally like a larger area. My small pen is about 120' x 120'. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dot me not Posted April 4, 2003 Report Share Posted April 4, 2003 I just today took 4 pups to my "new" roundpen. I found out real quick that it's too small and it's a 50 footer. Works great for horses but there isn't enough room to let things happen with the pups. I need to add several more panels to get some breathing room in there. Jae seemed fine with the closeness but Hannah wants to get off her sheep quite a bit farther but when she'd try there was a fence in her way at every turn. I'll be making a riding ring for the horses this summer and it will be approx 75 X 150. That's still small compared to what you're probably used to working cattle (I do mostly western pleasure). I did try Hannah in an actual 2 acre?? paddock to start with, but she likes to circle at Mach 2 and I'm jut too old and fat to keep up with her for more than a couple or three rounds. I'd try to block her to get her to go the other way and Hell, she'd just hit the speed of light and widen out around me. So unfortunately for the next few outings she's stuck with me in that little roundpen. I'm REALLY green on starting dogs, but I know a woman that works almost exclusively with cattle dogs. She starts hers on dog broke goats because they're more like "mini cows". They don't have the same flocking instinct as sheep, or so I've been told several times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBR Posted April 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2003 Wow, what a wonderful group! Thank you Pam, Lydia and Inci for all the great information. I would of never thought to start in a pen that big, just for the fact of losing control. The trainer that my other BC's came from used a 12' round pen, no wonder it was a Chinese fire drill! I was really hoping y'all were going to say goats. I'll be buying goats, and I'm sure they are not dog broke, but I should be able to do that with my older guys. My other mistake would of been to buy adults, once again thanks! I would love to eventually trial, but that's a LONG way off - ) Thank you again, and I'm sure I will be back with some really stupid questions. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted April 5, 2003 Report Share Posted April 5, 2003 A 12' round pen, huh? Dare I guess your other trainer had letters behind her/his dogs name? My latest joy is an arena shaped pen that is 150' wide and 250' long - giving the dogs (almost) enough to room to get off the stock. We started on goats for several years - they should be fine... Welcome aboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toney Posted April 5, 2003 Report Share Posted April 5, 2003 The 12' pen may not have much to do with "letters" behind a dog's name, unless those letters are NCHA (National Cutting Horse Association), that is. I've seen dogs started for turnback dogs in a small pen, can't say I've seen a real reason why, but I guess it might be that turnback dogs aren't supposed to gather to the handler (who is mounted) as much as turn the cattle back toward the herd to keep them from getting away from the horse being worked...it looks more like keeping the stock off the feed bunk while you're putting out grain, rather than a true balanced gather. I imagine the same thing could be done in a bigger pen and done better that way, but I have seen a pair of turnback dogs started several years ago that way by a local cutter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dot me not Posted April 5, 2003 Report Share Posted April 5, 2003 Bill G. writes: A 12' round pen, huh? HeHe... When I got Red I did actually have to use a 12X14 stall to get him to begin working for me. I tried for about 2 weeks to get him to even do a simple gather for me and he'd just RUN. I'd whisper come bye or waaaay to me and he'd hit the hot road back to the house! I had to pull him out from under my truck and car several times. I think he was convinced that his origional owner would come back if only he waited long enough and was loyal enough to her. Finally, out of desperation, I got him in a stall with a couple of sheep (cause I didn't have a bigger pen at the time without going to the regular fields.) I'd whisper come bye and he'd look for the door and when he realized it was closed he'd just hit the floor and look away. I just gently pushed him around with body pressure and soft whispers until he got over his guilt from "working" for someone other than his partner of 9 years. Now the funny thing is, he's just as loyal to me as he was to her. My neice was out here a week ago and wanted to try to work him. OK, fine. Red adores Amy and we thought we'd give it a try. She takes him out there to the field and sends him to the right. He's off like a bullet. Holy Cow, I thought. Ol' Red just may work for Amy. NOT He gathered up those sheep pretty as you please and brought them straight past Amy and up to where I was standing just outside the gate. Amy tried several versions of come bye, away to me, lie down and Dammit Red! All to no avail. But he has seen his previous owner several times at clinics and will very willingly work again for her. I love my dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBR Posted April 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2003 I don't believe there are any letters after his dog's names. At least, there aren't any on mine. I don't want to paint the wrong picture. I think the world of my trainer, just to the novice eye, it looked like chaos when he worked a dog in that small round pen. He has been wonderful beyond words and standing behind his dog 1000%. Actually, he's been too kind, I feel quilty calling him with silly questions. It tickles me to see y'all write about the trials and tribulations of a new dog. My guy did the same thing, when I asked him to work, he left the pen and acted like he didn't now what a cow was. I was wondering if they would still have that loyality to their original person, sounds like they do. Now, he is so devoted I can't move without tripping over him. I glad to know I'm not too far off base. I,too, was going to start him in a stall. I thought that would of been perfect. My (horse) training pen is 125x125, so I quess that's more like it. I was worried about an out of shape dog trudging through the deep sand, and pulling something. The male I spoke about training is a purebred rescue, and got dumped for killing a sheep. Big surprise, leave a BC unsupervised without training or human interaction. I planned on starting with general obedience, sound right?? Once again, thank you all for the help and the acknowledgment. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted April 6, 2003 Report Share Posted April 6, 2003 Well, Toney, I guess a fella learns something - well, I learned some folks might use a 12' pen to train a dog...something it would never occur to me, or anyone else I've seen train, do... Glad it worked for those fellas - the only time I've seen young pups put in a situation like that they've no way to control thier power and are encouraged to "cowboy up" just by the circumstances... Maybe that's what you folks need in a turnback dog? Are Border Collies the dog of choice for this job? I would have thought other breeds might be better suited for that sort of work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dot me not Posted April 6, 2003 Report Share Posted April 6, 2003 Now, he is so devoted I can't move without tripping over him. Yep, that's it! And Red is so intent on watching which direction I'm going he has frequently knocked over buckets, boxes and even a wheelbarrow! He'll be running forward while looking backward at me! Too comical... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyjabo Posted April 6, 2003 Report Share Posted April 6, 2003 Something I have picked up on over the last few months working goats. Goats(and I believe cattle too)don't naturally bring out as much "eye" and line balance in dogs that sheep do. Their flocking instinct is not as strong and the dog can't settle into one pressure point as easily. I was dreading having to get some sheep again(because I do like the dogs learning to use eye and line pressure-instead of me creating it). I decided that the problem was that young dogs got frustrated when they settled in to eyeing the pressure point--- only to have to gather the edges over and over again. My tenative solution has been to drop down to two goats- they will flock tight together and work as one. Once the dog gets the idea of settling in-- it SEEMS to carry over to larger groups. I have only been trying this for a short time but so far its working well enough that I have no intention of getting any more sheep. PS- I still start the dogs on several goats. I just go to the two occasionally when I am working on balance and pace a few weeks into the training. Another thing that I have learned is that goats do not work well at all single. I used to work the sheep as singles to tighten up a dog-- it just makes the goat(no matter how dog broke) stand and fight. For a young dog get young goats(preferably dog broke)- unbroke mature nannies are way too tough. Nice things about broke stock is that -- you can easily use a larger pen(for the dogs benefit) but still have some disater controls for the stock. When the dog gets rough and and takes them away from you, they know enough to do what it takes to get back to you for protection. --- and they don't overreact to the dogs silliness keeping things calmer. Good Luck Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toney Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 The only turnback dogs I've ever seen were border collies, so I guess they are the preferred breed. I've seen them used off and on like that since the early 80's, haven't seen many recently since I'm not a cutter, but people started using dogs instead of turnback riders because it's hard to always have two turnback horses when you're ready to cut, so they started using dogs. I've actually seen some advertisements in magazines before for turnback dogs, but can't remember what magazine. Like I said my information and experience with them is limited, I'm not a cutter nor am I a turnback dog trainer, I'm just providing information. Terry Toney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 Thanks Terry, any information is more than I have... I ask the western cattledog folks if I can bring my International Harvester 706 into the arena when they want to work 'em from horseback...that's pretty much the extent of my experinence in "working mounted"... Oh, and the old bastard I had to keep slapping upside the head to keep from biting me when my wife made me go trailriding... As for cattle dogs, I guess I expect my dogs to do pretty much what I need 'em to do either with cattle or sheep - so I train them pretty much the same, in larger arenas where they can learn to work off the stock...I guess I'd like to see how one can train in a 12' ring...that information would be nice to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBR Posted April 7, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 We've been cutting for about 12 years, the only dogs that we've seen used successfully have been BC's. Some trainers have tried other breeds, but for whatever reason they go back to Border Collies. There is a HUGE market (and they go for a ton of money!) in the Cutting horse industry for turnback dogs, because help is so hard to find, and the dogs are much less expensive and easier to keep than extra working horses - and do a better job. Personally, I was a Aussie person, I still have a few, but my working dogs are BC's. I found the Aussies would make a move and run back to you for congradulations, that makes fo a long day. As for working in the 12' pen, I can't tell you "how" he works, or his reasoning, like I said I am a novice. Basically, he puts three goats in a pen, the dog and himself. He uses a livestock stick and works the dog through his commands, "way", "by", "there" etc... He uses and large arena for the outruns, but all the starting work is done in the pen. He has been in the business for ages, and renowned in this area for producing good dogs, many specifically turnback dogs. Hope this helps. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 Well thanks, Dawn. I guess starting on the goats rather than on cows make more sense - even than, in my expereince, with sheep - in my expereince the goats are slower moving... I still wonder about such a small area though, it would seem much more manageable for a dog to learn it's power in a larger area... If you were training for a "normal" use dog - I would recommend training on the stock you were going to be working as much as possible...for a cattledog I would use 600-800 pound calves and make sure the dog could manuever. But obviously you've got successful dogs that started with goats... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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