Guest newguy Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 I was just wanting to here some experiences of what you guys have seen dogs do when stressed from training. I have one now that as soon as I try to put him on a drive he gulps snow, when on a fetch he is fine. This is a 3 yr old dog i have in for training. I have a 4 yr old female that i have in that opens her mouth wide and gulps air. The first time I saw this I thought she was tired so the next time I took her out I insisted on a stop in the first few minutes of training and she started gulping air. Is this stress or something else? I would like to hear what others think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 Turid Rugaas' book (and videotape, and I think some other related paraphernalia), Calming Signals, details a number of behaviors that she says dogs use to defuse situations -- kind of a canine version of "chill out" that they might direct to each other or to people when things start getting hot and hectic. I believe (and so do a lot of other people I know, with varying levels of experience with dogs) that she's lumped together a bunch of things that include both appeasement signals and displacement behaviors, but the insights she made and the work she's done to disseminate them among average dog owners are really quite valuable. That would be a good place to start if you want a documentation of these sorts of behaviors. Displacement behaviors are the sorts of things dogs do when they're stressed, in any circumstance, including training. In some cases you could look at them as behaviors that occur, basically, when the dog is strongly motivated to do something but can't, which would be a frequent occurence if you're training a dog on sheep and not allowing him to do the wrong thing. Common displacement behaviors can be things like barking, yawning (big one), circling and sniffing, or suddenly sitting down and being very concerned about grooming a tiny spot on your rear end. It's the sort of stuff where owners often think "the dog isn't listening to me! He's blowing me off!" but really the dog is feeling overfaced and trying to take a time out. I see it in agility class if someone tries to get their reluctant toy dog to go over the giant A-frame one too many times, and the dog suddenly zones out and wanders off across the room sniffing hair tumbleweeds on the floor. If I get lost in the middle of an agility course and am trying to find the next obstacle (which happens often), Solo will often start bouncing around me and barking at the top of his lungs, because he wants to keep going very badly, and he can't without me. (Although sometimes he does, and makes up the rest of the course by himself. Not good, although sometimes I admire his initiative.) I've actually seen many more classic displacement behaviors in sports dogs than in working dogs. In general, the sheepdog handlers I've seen are much better about giving their dogs breaks and not letting them get fried. But, since I am not a great handler, I've seen them in my dogs. Solo, for example, has a gripping problem that is fairly problematic when I work him and pretty much non-existent when a competent handler works him. His grips are "tension" grips and I consider them a displacement behavior. He tends to commit them when he is getting fried and when I am "leaning" on him heavily, and often when I call him off. Fly's displacement behavior is to start blowing off flanks and creeping randomly around the sheep like a sheepdog robot if she is asked to do abstract complicated stuff (patterns around rocks in the field, for example, with constant commands) for too long. Too much pressure. I guess another working displacement behavior would be spinning on an outrun or before being sent on an outrun. -- Melanie, Solo the Red, and Superfly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 Calming Signals is a wonderful book and I've actually seen dogs use them on sheep! Works too. Dael is the best. With a stomping ewe she will avert her head all the while keeping an eye on the ewe. The ewe calms and then is workable. Really fascinating. And I see far more displacement behaviours and calming signals in dog sports, but when I watch many people train on stock I really see alot of the se behaviours. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 widening flanks, flanking off contact, orbiting, slicing, busting through, locking up, blowing flanks, yawning, turning tail when asked to flank off balance, turning their face/gaze away, quitting... These are some signals that come to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 calming signals. There are many people that disagree with her. Some parts in the book are great, but some parts are not. Especially the yawning, it is more likely that dogs yawn to calm themselves, not each other. You should also keep in mind that this book is written by a person that considers the word "no" cruelty. ------------------ ---- Thor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 16, 2003 Report Share Posted January 16, 2003 I agree, Thor. Some parts of Calming Signals are great, some aren't. I don't think all the behaviors she discusses function in the way she thinks they do. What I think she did, that is useful, was to catalogue a number of behaviors that most owners would not notice and point out that they can be significant. Yawning is the one "calming signal" I've personally tried to use that seems to work the way she says it does. I think yawning is also a stress behavior, but it does seem to work as a "calming signal" and one that is neutral, i.e., a signal that cannot be confused with praise or reward. I have no idea why it works or what it really means but it can be useful. -- Melanie, Solo the Red, and Superfly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 In regards to "Calming Signals": To paraphrase my hero who just posted on Sheepdog-L about "doggie aggression" - "You could spend countless hours and unless you speak dog any conclusion you arrive at is at best a sophisticated wild ass guess anyway." Thad - Gulping snow is something I've seen - might be a combination of pressure and simply cooling off? Leaving the field and getting sulky are of course the biggest indicators...but your female? I don't know...has she shown any other signs of overheating or over excitement? I have a bitch that when overexcited will gulp air - accompanied by some drooling and slurping of the drool... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 One of the biggest indicators I've seen are the consumption of smart pills or grass, sniffing the ground, or similar distracted behaviors. Perhaps gulping snow is in this family? Another is harder to put my finger on, but it's a look -- the eyes are wider, perhaps the tip of the tongue is curled up, and the dog seems exerted in ways that are out of proportion to the amount of physical effort it has expended. If you push beyond these, you'll see the rest of the bunch -- leaving the field, turning tail, etc. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 Bill G have you read Stanley Coren (sp) book on How to Speak Dog? Can't remember teh exact title and I recently loaned it, a wonderful book. And it goes well with Turid Rugaas' book Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 Nah, Pam, I pretty much know what my dogs are saying - the little darlin's are usually just saying, "WHY aren't we working sheep?"... And sometimes, "Would there be dinner?" And occasionally, "That's the handsomest boy (or girl) I've EVER seen!"... And then when we're working sheep, it's "WHY did you do that? That was SO stupid! I am SO embarrassed" ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 God almighty! Slip a little prozac if the little precious can't take the pressure of training. Can't make a silk purse out of sow's ear,that's what I would tell the dog's owner. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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