Lyndsey Posted December 7, 2002 Report Share Posted December 7, 2002 I've yet to find a site or book that describes training using a clicker. Why is that? Can it be done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted December 7, 2002 Report Share Posted December 7, 2002 Why would you use clicker when herding? ------------------ ---- Thor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted December 7, 2002 Report Share Posted December 7, 2002 Use the search feature of this forum to find discussions on "Clicker training". You'll find it very worth your while. Basically, a true working relationship with your dog is too complex to shape with a clicker/marker type training. ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted December 7, 2002 Report Share Posted December 7, 2002 I clicker train both my dogs in civilian life but would never use a clicker for herding. There are a lot of reasons why but the main reason is that in herding, you are eliciting behaviors that are inherent in the dog, rather than installing artificial behaviors. In addition, the behavior is far too complex to atomize into clickable portions, and most humans do not read stock well enough, nor are they fast enough, to spot and mark clickable behavior even if the behavior were not quite so complex. Finally, the rewards are not so easily withheld and then doled out -- if your dog is not working for the primary reward of being allowed to work (if the sheep are not the reinforcer) your dog isn't really herding. I have heard of trainers who shape herding-like behaviors using clickers or other reward markers and treats. For a keen dog with talent, this is pointless. For a dog who isn't very interested and has no talent, this works very well. But you don't end up with a herding dog in the latter case. A dog who is herding is in conscious and deliberate control of his sheep and working in partnership with his handler. A dog who has been "shaped" into giving the appearance of herding is actually working for an extrinsic reward and has little idea of how or why he is affecting the sheep. He is simply moving in response to commands from his handler and has no personal opinion about the matter; the handler is using him as a remote control to move the sheep around. Totally not the same thing. Good herding training operates on the principles of R+ and P-, like any good "positive" or "reward-based" training paradigm. The difference is that R+ is access to sheep, and the opportunity to control them, not food, not a toy, not anything on the handler's person. P- involves breaking the dog's contact with the sheep. In an ideal world (from a learning theory freak's point of view) one could employ P- by making sheep disappear into thin air, but since this is not possible one normally employs what are referred to as "corrections." Properly-administered corrections should not be confused with P+ in the majority of cases because they are not about punishment; they are about interrupting the dog, breaking his concentration and his contact with the sheep, not allowing him to influence and control them (and thus continually reward himself). This may be done by body blocking, verbally, with crook taps, with long lines, whatever. What is appropriate will vary by dog. There is a Yahoo email list, ClickHerd, but it is largely inactive. The archives may interest you. You should also search the archives here, as Becca suggested, and I'd especially look for posts by Luisa (Chulas Fronteras) who unfortunately doesn't post here anymore. I'm not an expert by any means (only been herding for a little under two years), but I kind of understand where you're coming from because I am a devoted clicker fan. I think that the underlying philosophy behind most herding training is actually the same -- good training is good training -- but the outward appearances are very different and you have to learn to trust your dog's judgment instead of imposing your own. When you do that, it's really cool to watch your dog blossom into this confident, independent-thinking worker who knows more about the whole business than you ever will, and he'll teach you a lot. -- Melanie, Solo the Red, and The Fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 7, 2002 Report Share Posted December 7, 2002 Not bad, Melanie, for an ivory tower grad student...insert honest, but smirky, face here... It appears as if your Fly and you are learning a great deal, pretty cool, huh? Lindsey, everything Melanie says is true - and besides, even if you clicker train a dog to herd, how'in the heck are they gonna hear that at 800 yards and how ya gonna click fast enough when you have an angry bull doing it's best to stomp the little pishka into a pile of cow manure? Traditional herding, as opposed to akc title/obedience herding, is all about establishing a working partnership with the dog - not illiciting a conditioned response... I'm sure it can be done, nearly anything can be done - someone posted here awhile back about a "herding training clinic" held by "non-traditional" folks where, when the dog got to the far side of the sheep, they tossed food over the heads of the sheep to the dog... Why would anybody want to do that? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 12-07-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Posted December 7, 2002 Report Share Posted December 7, 2002 Just a note--you probably *won't* find any discussions of clicker training in the archives. The server was in danger of crashing, and I had to delete a lot of old posts. :-( In the future, if there are any threads that users feel are particularly valuable, please email me and I'll archive them into a "read-only" status, so they won't get automatically purged the next time something like this happens. Sorry for any inconvenience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyndsey Posted December 8, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 Okay, I'm convinced the clicker isn't for the herder. I was just wondering. Oh, and by the way, they make a remote clicker collar that can would serve the purpose of clicking up to 800 away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 "Oh, and by the way, they make a remote clicker collar that can would serve the purpose of clicking up to 800 away." Oh, and you would know exactly which way to shift your dog, and by how much, at that distance? Better eyes and reflexes than most, I imagine... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 Bill, You cracked me up there,thanks for the laugh. Lyndsey, Herding is not just the dog,it's about sheep,dog and handler. Sheep will behave differently to many things. Terrain,obstacles,dogs and believe it or not,handlers and what handler is wearing in that day. Some people will work with sheep day in,day out and don't know a jacks@%t about them and that's where the importance of a good,well bred dogs out of continously worked parents/ancestors comes handy to teach us all about them. To cut the sermon short,do you know how sheep will behave at 800 yards vs.8 feet? Frankly,at 800 yards,I let the dog decide what to do b/c I can't see or read the sheep. We train and train every single day (gets very boring) to make that happen and it takes about 2-3 years to polish a dog to be trustworthy at such distances to bring me my sheep without stressing them. So,think sheep first,then comes the dog. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net ------------------- It's better to be silent and thought the fool,than to speak and remove all doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted December 9, 2002 Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 And here I thought I was showing such restraint by not giving the full benefit of my eloquence. Ha ha! Or hot air, let's say . . .we're iced in here and I'm in a ridiculously chatty mood. The clicker type training focuses your dog on you. If you can manage to create that interaction on stock, then your dog is not going to do a very good job of doing his job, being the partner with the lion's share of stock sense. Things happen WAY too fast, often out of sight (ie, dog on other side of sheep or cows) and sometimes you can't even predict what the appropriate response would be. I always trot out my example of my borrowed dog Greg. I borrowed my trainer's old trial dog while my youngster was away for training. One day I was working a set of ewes and they decided they didn't want to move through a gate. I told Greg to walk up forty times, in great frustration - he just stood turning his head a bit. Finally, he looked at me hooting and hollering like the idiot I was, and laid down. Sheep turned and walked through gate. Another time he was lying down watching sheep for me while I wormed. I needed one in the back so I asked for a flank. I was looking right at him and I didn't see him move a hair, but the sheep shifted and the one in the back magically popped out. What would I have clicked in that instance? ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 9, 2002 Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 Rebecca, You click when they perform magic like that, and then the realize that's what you want. Then, every time you click, they perform new magic. It's so simple ... ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted December 9, 2002 Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 I am a very open minded, live and let live person when it comes to people and their dogs and the various ways they can be trained. But I am sitting here giggling at the thought of me having to hold a crook, rope and a clicker while I train my pup. Would be interesting to video..ggg I tried clickers for obedience and agility but I wasn't very good at it, better at "spitting" food. Cracking up over the "throwing food over the sheep to reward the dogs" thing, what a hoot. Most dogs I know would not even notice food with sheep in reach....ggg Making my Monday fun.... dianne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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