Sue Whiteman Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 I've just introduced my young dog to the concept of "look baack" as part of the shedding training. He sheds off part of teh flock, walks them off then I usse that time to introduce the look back. It is the first time I've trained this and I noticed that he always turns his head to the right, even though he is to the left of the flock he has driven off. This causes a kind of tailturn if he is required to run out to the outside of the flock he is looking back for on the away side. He was always better to the away side anyway. Is this OK to leave alone? Or should I try to correct this detail even at this very early phase of this training? TIA Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 STOP IT. Spinning about is penalized on a double lift (or should be)... Try a lie down and "this way"...? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookcove Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 Question: My dog is trained (not by me) to turn on Look Back, and stand still, as if at the post looking for sheep and waiting for the command to begin his outrun. If I wait long enough he will flank out to the side opposite his last gather but I'm supposed to give him a flank. I've always liked it this way because I can put him anywhere while we're working, and also because he's looking for his sheep rather than flanking blindly, but I'm told this is technically wrong? Thanks, ------------------ Rebecca Brook Cove Farm, NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 That's a new one on me, perhaps someone with more experience in International gathers has a better answer, but the ISDS rulebook simply states: "Both the dog and the first lot of sheep must be past the gate to the post 20 yards inside the gate before the dog is re-directed for the second lot." And the fancy new USBCHA "guidelines" states: "Dog may receive one command for going back and one directional command without penalty. Additional commands should be penalized per command?" The only thing I can figure is that someone might see the waiting as "stopping on the outrun"...and that's something you could ask the judge at the handler's meeting... I have heard judges state they want the dog to turn (in the correct direction) immediately, but i don't think that would preclude both a "look back" and a flank command...but I suppose those could be considered minor deductions (even if the dog took them perfectly) so as to leave room for the dog that does it without them...now that I think about it... Hope someone else chimes in, I'd like to know as welll ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 11-07-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 There was a discussion on this very topic recently on one of the discussion groups--I think "workingsheepdog." As you can imagine, there were a number of opinions, from those who thought the dog should automatically know to go gather in the opposite direction of the first gather without any directions from the handler to those who flank their dogs around the first lot of sheep to set them up for the "look back" and redirect. The folks who were against the dog automatically going to the opposite side without commands noted that lookbacks in work on the hill or at home (this is why it must have been on workingsheepdog as it's based out of the UK) aren't always to the opposite side and so training that way was actually rather impractical for real work as opposed to trialling. Those people who were opposed to flanking the dog around the first lot of sheep (say all the way to 3 or 9) to set him up correctly for the second outrun seemed to think that the dog shouldn't have to be flanked more than 10 minutes to or past 12 before being told to look back and sent on the outrun. I know there are others on these boards who are also on Workingsheepdog. Maybe they can add to this discussion. Personally, I like the way Derek Scrimgeour teaches the lookback in his video ("A hill Shepherd Trains His Border Collies"). J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 A couple of thoughts occur to me here. I'm no expert at this, having never competed in a double-lift trial, but I certainly use a look back command with some regularlity. First, it's perhaps a bit too advanced to be concerned with how the dog takes the look back when he's just learning it. Baby steps. However, if you can simply stop the dog, let him think, tell him to look back, let him turn and look, and then give the broad flank to indicate he's to gather the second packet, that's the business. I'd agree that training a dog to *automatically* go the direction opposite the first outrun is folly. I'd say the second gather in real working situations is just as often to the same side as the first gather as the opposite. Sue, as to your original question, are you still near the dog when you're teaching look back, or are you trying to do it at a distance? If you're not right there to help him with your body language, etc., I'd say that's where to start. Get out there with him and show him what you want him to do. When he's doing well with you standing there, then move five yards away, then 10, then 50, etc. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH [This message has been edited by Bill Fosher (edited 11-08-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Not disagreeing, William, but when you say, "I'd say the second gather in real working situations is just as often to the same side as the first gather as the opposite." Do you mean your (hypothetical) biscuit eater has failed to gather all the stock in the park? Or at least all the stock on THAT side of the park? And, a thought truly delicious on a wonderful "Indian Summer" friday morn - shouldn't a dog at the level of competing in an International Gather have the brains and expereince to KNOW it's at a trial? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 11-08-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 What I usually end up using the look back for is to re-gather the sheep after we had shed some and I realize that I need one fro the main group yet. Sometimes it is the biscuit eater thing, too. I guess I generally don't like dogs making assumptions about which way they're going to go; I want to tell them. ------------------ Bill Fosher Surry, NH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 "Look back" to me, is only part of an International Gather... Yeah, I hate that biscuit eater thang... To me, "look back" is only a minor part of the International Gather - and one of the easier parts...something you need to put on a working dog nearly as soon as you take 'em out to the pasture...for those wily old ewes that learn to hang back in the woods, or the lambs that panic and wait until the flock splits... But having a dog do a creditable International Gather is a very different thing, I think... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Whiteman Posted November 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 Bill, I am still next to his shoulder when "doing" the lookback. He is still young but the manoeuvre seemed to go with the shed so I started to see if he could do it. I just don't want to start any bad habits and to get it right in the first place. I am happy to move over to whichever side I want him to turn to and encourage him out that way...if he spins I can see that this may result in his crossing his sheep on the second outrun. As for major trials, I have seen a trial where the second packet of sheep was located very near a fence and required the dog to go between the fence and the sheep to fetch them if he was to stay on the outside of them. It was tricky and certainly sorted out the dogs and the trainers!! Thanks for your help. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ts Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 Sue, I am a little confused as why sheep would be spotted so close to the fence at a trial. You definitely want a dog strong enough to take sheep off of the fence but not on an outrun at a trial. Taking sheep off of the exhaust (If you are dumb or unlucky enough to let the sheep get to the exhaust and put your dog in that position --and I have been that dumb and dumber more than once!) would be a truer test of the dog's strength. However on an outrun, I thought that it was traditional and fair that the dog have enough room at the top to make a proper lift without disturbing the sheep on the way up on his outrun. If he basically has to run at them and disturb them, then the spotter must really be holding them too tight if they are staying. Am I misreading or misunderstanding what you are trying to say about the location of the sheep and the fence? I have been to many trials where the majority of handlers sent their dogs in a particular direction because they did not believe that the other direction left enough room to do a good outrun without disturbing the sheep. However, on the double lift you do not have the option of choosing your direction. Surprised that this was not thought of by the course director or judge. I have to be missing something here. The prettiest way to do a look back for a double lift is sometimes called a "swallowtail". It is also said to be a "Scottish thing" although used by a few top other handlers. I have also been told it is the most risky. If you go see the top 20 open dogs at the finals next Sunday, you will see it executed and very well. Me-I cannot describe it or nor execute it. A picture is worth a thousand words amd watching the finals is more fun than posting on a board! If you cannot get to the finals, there is always the video. Terry ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 9, 2002 Report Share Posted November 9, 2002 Terry - just thought I'd let you know you aren't alone in having "lost" sheep to the exhaust pen... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Whiteman Posted November 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2002 Terry, I saw the situaation I described at a local trial in GB this summer...it was a private sort of local trial too, where some top people get together for some practice before Nationals. The course was tricky...the sheep were set out to one side of a hillock and a straight fetch was a real test especially as there was a tree on teh hillock as well! Then the second packet were set out but tended to drift off to the side. They weren't really spotted...I did carefully write "located" in my previous post. It wasn't really a qualifying trial as such but a morning doing things which were as difficult as possible. Training while trialling really...They were trying to get a second lift from a rather difficult angle so the lookback wasn't a 180?but more a 45?. In addition I have a 5 year old bitch which was trained to do a lookback but not to turn outwards...she will turn any whichway. Is it too late to change her habits? Or will I cause more confusion and lose what she has and have to live with losing a couple of points if I ever need the manoeuvre? Which may be never...she (and I) may never get to that level... Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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