another question about barking

[daisyandme]

If a dog is barking at other dogs because of fear, is it ok to squirt the barking dog with water?

 

I don't know if there is a clear cut answer to this, but generally speaking if it is ok to do this, I will just assume Daisy and I had a bad day today and try again tomorrow. But if it is not ok to approach her barking and fear problem in this manner, I would like to add more information about what occurred and will probably ask for some advice on how to handle things from here on out. Has to do with an experience with a trainer.

 

Feeling so defeated right now

[Guest echoica]

If a dog is barking at other dogs because of fear, is it ok to squirt the barking dog with water?

 

I don't know if there is a clear cut answer to this, but generally speaking if it is ok to do this, I will just assume Daisy and I had a bad day today and try again tomorrow. But if it is not ok to approach her barking and fear problem in this manner, I would like to add more information about what occurred and will probably ask for some advice on how to handle things from here on out.

 

Feeling so defeated right now

 

if your dog is acting out in fear you should probably avoid anything punitive - which includes spraying water at the dog. find the tastiest treat in existence (hot dogs, sandwich meats are pretty awesome for getting a dogs attention...but if you want something healthier you could cook some chicken)...use the food to redirect her attention back to you. shove the food in the dogs face if you have to. but don't give it to her unless she is walking alongside looking at you. and remember to be calm when approaching or passing other dogs...try not to anticipate anything or the dog might sense it.

[Shetlander]

Feeling so defeated right now

 

Aww. I get the sense there is a backstory I'm missing regarding your dog, sorry. But if she is fearful, I agree with echoia that it will be more effective to reward the behaviors you want rather than punishing the ones you don't. The good thing is at least the water isn't painful, though most dogs dislike it. I highly recommend the book Click to Calm by Emma Parsons. It is marketed for aggressive dogs but really works for dogs in general and is also a great primer on clicker training. I've used it with my Sheltie who is prone to alarm bark on walks and within a couple of days she was prancing at my side ignoring all the things that were previously setting her off (basically anything moved and breathed).

 

Hang in there! Remember with a fearful dog, while it is good to have goals, you have to let the dog set the pace of training. This may not have been a great day, but remember what Scarlett O'Hara said, "Tomorrow is another day!"

[daisyandme]

Yes, there is a backstory, but I was not sure about sharing it until seeing if everyone thought squirting Daisy was bad or not. I wanted to be respectful of the trainer.

 

So here it goes:

Daisy had her first obedience class this week. Before I signed her up, I told the trainer that she had a problem with barking at dogs and that it seemed to have started after being charged at on two separate occasions when she was somewhere between 3-4 months old while I was taking her for a walk around the neighborhood. The trainer thought that since this could have been sometime around a fear period that this situation might be hard to get her over but since she was still young it is possible that she might get over it. The trainer then told me that Daisy would dictate what she felt comfortable with.

 

I arrived at class early so that I could get Daisy situated to try and keep her as calm as possible. I was surprised at how easily she went in the building and she seemed to feel comfortable with the trainer and her assistant. (On a side note, I have noticed over the last three weeks that she is getting more comfortable with people. She is a bit shy and nervous overall). As puppies arrived, Daisy began barking. I would settle her down and she would bark again and again and again. The trainer had chairs set up in two columns with four seats to a column. Once the everyone was pretty much in, the trainer took Daisy down the center to see how confident Daisy was. Daisy was unsure and barked at the other puppies. The trainer started with verbal correction and verbal praise, but Daisy would go back to barking and also did talk back. She came back to me and said you have your hands full with her, but I like her personality. I do know that I have my hands full because Daisy can be rather opinionated, hardheaded and manipulative. But I do think I know the difference between those qualities and fear. So, for the first 15 min of class Daisy was barking on and off. It was at this point that the trainer squirted Daisy in the face once. Daisy stopped then barked. The trainer squirted her again and Daisy stopped but then seemed afraid/unsure to approach the trainer for awhile.

 

Shorty after being squirted, the trainer told us as the start of every class, she lets the puppies play off leash and told us of some ground rules during this activity. When we let the puppies off leash all the other puppies started interacting with each other for the most part, but Daisy remained in the corner unwilling to venture out. It took her a very long time to venture out. She made her way maybe two chairs out staying close to the chairs and avoiding the puppies. she quickly ran back to me. After this some puppies became interested in her and she began barking. At this point, the trainer asked me to get up and move away from Daisy to see what she would do. Daisy had her tail between her legs, ears back, hackles up and barking. She began following me trying to hide behind me. As she did this I moved away from her each time so that the trainer could watch her behavior. The trainer asked us to leash the dogs and go back to our seats. Daisy was shaking. The trainer wanted to go over some of the things she saw so that we could all understand and watch out for certain behaviors. She said that Daisy needed more socializing and that Daisy and one other puppy might benefit from day care so that she could pair up dogs that would be appropriate playmates so that they could learn how to interact with other dogs. She also said that Daisy and this other puppy were being kind of bossy because they had figured out what behavior keeps dogs away from them. Meaning that Daisy and this other puppy are over reacting to the situation. This made sense to me actually. She said that it would be a good idea to bring Daisy to a monthly puppy play date for more social interaction. I did sign her up. When I left the class, I was very concerned about Daisy being squirted because I was afraid that this would only increase her negative association with dogs. Up until this point I really thought Daisy was making some progress. I had been doing what you suggested echoica as well as giving her treats for just looking at the dog and not responding. We got to the point where I could go in the center of a track and have dogs walk around us with Daisy watching and not reacting at all or only very minor under the breath barks.

 

Today was not good. Her reactions were way over the top. It was almost as if she was over sensitive. I notice today that she now barks as soon as she hears a dogs collar. What I find really odd is that dogs she met before those two charging events when all her barking issues started (I believe), she loves playing with, but any new dog she barks.

 

Aside from the squirting, I thought the trainer was pretty good. I only had wished she waited to squirt Daisy until seeing her behavior off leash because I think it better demonstrates how Daisy is around unknown dogs. She acts very submissive a lot of the time with the dogs she knows. Actually, I think sometimes way over the top submissive. She urinates, licks inside the mouth, rollover on her back and/or stays very low to the ground with her head to the side.

 

I know I am not an expert so maybe I am missing something with Daisy's body language that the trainer picked up on. What should I do?

 

Anyway sorry for the long post and I hope I got all the information in. I don't know if I should go back to this trainer or not. She does have a website if that would help.

 

edit: found some spelling mistakes and unclear sentences

[Jedismom]

I would not go back to this class. Did you know this trainer was going to use an aversive (like squirting water in her face) before the class? Did she discuss it with you? Did you give your permission? I would be pissed if someone walked up to my dog and squirted water in her face. From your description, it seems to me that although the barking stopped each time she was squirted, it increased her fear tremendously. The opposite of what you were trying to achieve. You will have to go back to square one now with trying to make her more comfortable around other dogs, and now possibly new places.

 

I was in a class once with a BC that barked alot at everything. The instructor handled it much differently. The owner was allowed to move around and engage the dog in doing some commands and click and treat so the dog would not get fixated. The instructor would interact with the dog in a quiet positive manner and bring the dog little by little close to another dog while doing the click and treat. The dog learned to relax. I liked her class because it was unstructured and she worked with you with the issues you had. She did not announce your dogs issues to the rest of the class.

 

I'd find another class, but of course that's up to you. I take it you were uncomfortable with it or you would not have posted.

[Blackdawgs]

What should I do?

 

Although I agree that your pup needs more socialization, I would try to find another trainer. As you observed, the wrong type of socialization can make matters worse. One of the problems with squirt guns and other adversives is that the dog can make unwanted associations. To give you an example of this, my agility "instructor" (I use the term lightly, she doesn't do much instructing) used a squirt gun (with the owners permission) on a barking dog in class; rather than having the desired effect of stopping the barking, it had the undesired effect of the dog not wanting to enter the agility field--the dog connected the water in its face with the agility field rather than barking.

 

With fearful dogs, you really want to avoid any aversive and sometimes it will seem (as you are stuffing food in the dog's face) that you are rewarding bad behavior.

 

When one is in a group situation or working with a trainer, there can be a tremendous amount of pressure to discipline a dog that appears to be acting out or not obeying. Without going into the details, I was recently in such a situation and it really was quite awful. My advice is to stay strong and follow your gut. Obviously, if you thought things were OK, you wouldn't have asked the question.

 

I would try to find a better situation for this dog. And I certainly wouldn't send it to daycare (i.e out of your sight) with this trainer or any other.

[eclare]

I would arrange some one on one play dates with dogs that you know are calm and well-behaved. A class full of puppies is bound to terrify a shy pup who is already uncertain about other dogs. A calm older dog that know how to behave around puppies combined with lots of treats could help teach Daisy that other dogs are fun and not something to fear.

[daisyandme]

Just wanted to say thank you for all the replies so far.

 

I would not go back to this class. Did you know this trainer was going to use an aversive (like squirting water in her face) before the class? Did she discuss it with you? Did you give your permission?

 

No, I did not know she was going to do something like this since I made a point of telling her of Daisy's problem her response seemed to indicate a more positive oriented approach by saying Daisy would tell us what is too much for her. She even said that we may find out that Daisy is not yet ready for a class. So I thought something like the method you mentioned for that BC in your class would be taken. I think that is why I thought later on that I was missing something with Daisy's body language. But I think what I am describing is fear.

 

I'd find another class, but of course that's up to you. I take it you were uncomfortable with it or you would not have posted.

Yes, it did make me uncomfortable and as soon as it happened my thought was Oh no, I hope Daisy doesn't process that as a more negative association with dogs. I was so afraid the rest of the night that she would process it that way. Especially when she hid under my chair a lot of the night and her body language changed to be uncertain about the trainer. When we were trying to do the first of four activities, the assistant thought Daisy had broken down and was too overwhelmed because Daisy was refusing to come out from the corner. When we tried to bring her out she stood up and pushed on us with her paws and pulled back. Her tail was tucked between her legs with her ears back and she wanted nothing to do with the treats in my hand. The assistant got the trainer and said I think this dog has "checked out" (by then the the assistant and I had gotten her out of the corner and were attempting to work on the exercise). The trainer then replied no, Daisy does not understand what you want so she started by placing the food on the floor to get her to stand from the sit. It began working. BUT I thought ok, but you also didn't see the struggle to even get her out to try this exercise. Usually she is so interested in working for food. She loves learning and will try to think ahead and go through her tricks. She was not very eager at all in this situation.

 

My family has had dogs my entire life and so I am not new to owning a dog, but I have never had a puppy that is so afraid. She is a "puppy" at home, but once we get outside of that she is the most "non puppy" puppy I have ever had. I wish I had understood more about Daisy's body language in this situation and removed her from the class. All I knew was I was feeling something was not right. Majority of the other puppies were so excited and so interested in the trainer and her food and Daisy could have cared less 80% of the time.

 

I don't know if a group class is appropriate for Daisy at this point. My guess would be yes with the right trainer and the socialization would be good for her. But I really don't know where to go from here with picking another trainer.

[Lokisaab]

I would not go back to this class. Did you know this trainer was going to use an aversive (like squirting water in her face) before the class? Did she discuss it with you? Did you give your permission? I would be pissed if someone walked up to my dog and squirted water in her face. From your description, it seems to me that although the barking stopped each time she was squirted, it increased her fear tremendously. The opposite of what you were trying to achieve. You will have to go back to square one now with trying to make her more comfortable around other dogs, and now possibly new places.

 

I was in a class once with a BC that barked alot at everything. The instructor handled it much differently. The owner was allowed to move around and engage the dog in doing some commands and click and treat so the dog would not get fixated. The instructor would interact with the dog in a quiet positive manner and bring the dog little by little close to another dog while doing the click and treat. The dog learned to relax. I liked her class because it was unstructured and she worked with you with the issues you had. She did not announce your dogs issues to the rest of the class.

 

I'd find another class, but of course that's up to you. I take it you were uncomfortable with it or you would not have posted.

 

I was going to reply almost the exact same thing! I would also add that maybe you could read the book 'Don't Shoot the Dog' by Karen Pryer. It's a great first stepping stone in learning about behavior modification.

It seems like just about anybody these days can call themselves a dog trainer and make money off people. While squirting a cat in the face might be an acceptable technique to change certain behavior, I don't see how that could ever help a young dog who is fearful or unsure. It's lazy training if it can even be considered training.

[Maralynn]

I would arrange some one on one play dates with dogs that you know are calm and well-behaved. A class full of puppies is bound to terrify a shy pup who is already uncertain about other dogs. A calm older dog that know how to behave around puppies combined with lots of treats could help teach Daisy that other dogs are fun and not something to fear.

 

Agreed 110%!!!

[ejano]

The trainer was way too harsh and yes, she made her behave, but the fear is still there to be dealt with. We have a similar problem with Brodie -- he's ten months old and still reactive to other dogs. He has a four foot circle of comfort -- if he stays that far away from other dogs he's fine. That is also the minimum distance allowed in AKC competitions (the obedience classes around here are all AKC). I give him something to do, treat him for doing it right, all the things that are suggested here.

 

He plays well with the other Border Collies he's met; he just doesn't like strange breeds, plus his brother picked on him until I put a stop to it, so he's got his reasons to be on the reactive side.

 

Daisy on the other hand, really never had a bad experience (until the class)! Be sure to thank the trainer for that on your way out the door. .

 

As for puppy play, I just don't like it in an uncontrolled situation like you described. At our first class, I yanked Robin out of it after he and an Aussie led a merry chase in pursuit of a min pin who looked way too much like a squirrel and the instructor was saying, "Look at that herding, ain't it great!" In a fourteen week old puppy, absolutely not! He can play all he wants with other herding type dogs who understand Border Collie rules and with whose owners I am well acquainted, but in my humble opinion, that kind of free for all is a recipe for disaster.

 

In my case, because I have three dogs, I don't really see the necessity for them to "play" with other dogs. All they need to do is learn how to tolerate their presence, which for the most part they do...as long as Brodie has his distance. Robin doesn't care if they pile on top of him. He's in charge of the world and he knows it.

 

Liz

[daisyandme]

What about placing Daisy in a class like this?

 

ARF-Tony La Russa's Animal Rescue Foundation It is the class titled "Wallflowers"

 

ejano, the only thing is she had a problem with barking at dogs and that it seemed to have started after being charged at on two separate occasions when she was somewhere between 3-4 months old while I was taking her for a walk around the neighborhood. She was already quite shy and nervous to begin with. I still am not able to go back to one of the locations without her having some kind of reaction. Usually frantically looking back and forth for the dog or wanting to walk as fast as possible past the house. She reacts to children running about, she reacts to skateboards and after yesterday children on bikes, she reacts to unknown dogs. And the reaction is barking or running away and barking while looking back. Sometimes she just refuses to move.

 

We do have another dog that Daisy plays with. I can also take her to the park where some friends bring their dogs (maybe four dogs or so). She loves playing with them, but since her recall is a work in progress, I have been cautious about doing this much. She is also outgrowing them in size.

[eclare]

What about placing Daisy in a class like this?

 

ARF-Tony La Russa's Animal Rescue Foundation It is the class titled "Wallflowers"

 

The Wallflowers class sounds intriguing, but I would want to know more about how they plan on running the class. Ask them first about their methods and how they work with a class full of shy dogs.

[ejano]

What about placing Daisy in a class like this?

 

ARF-Tony La Russa's Animal Rescue Foundation It is the class titled "Wallflowers"

 

ejano, the only thing is she had a problem with barking at dogs and that it seemed to have started after being charged at on two separate occasions when she was somewhere between 3-4 months old while I was taking her for a walk around the neighborhood. She was already quite shy and nervous to begin with. I still am not able to go back to one of the locations without her having some kind of reaction. Usually frantically looking back and forth for the dog or wanting to walk as fast as possible past the house. She reacts to children running about, she reacts to skateboards and after yesterday children on bikes, she reacts to unknown dogs. And the reaction is barking or running away and barking while looking back. Sometimes she just refuses to move.

 

We do have another dog that Daisy plays with. I can also take her to the park where some friends bring their dogs (maybe four dogs or so). She loves playing with them, but since her recall is a work in progress, I have been cautious about doing this much. She is also outgrowing them in size.

 

 

Yes, that would do it. She had a really good scare and now she's defensive, an understandable reaction. For example, if you'd been mugged or threatened, you wouldn't want to revisit that same area again!

 

As going after for the running children, bikes, etc., that's classic Border Collie sensitization to moving objects, and you've got a lot of work ahead of you as she needs to be desensitized in order to have a happy, safe life. Our Scotty came with us with a car fixation because all he did at his former house was run back and forth as cars passed and unfortunately, it cost him his life when he got away from our yard and lunged at a passing car. Work on desensitizing one thing at a time and make sure she gets plenty of safe exercise.....others have recommended some great books.

 

I'm going to try obedience rally with Robin this summer and we spend time practicing for that. Brodie is going to try herding and maybe the obedience.

 

You're fortunate that you have other nice dogs to play with. I need to find a nice Beagle friend for Brodie...

 

Liz

[daisyandme]

Yes, that would do it. She had a really good scare and now she's defensive, an understandable reaction. For example, if you'd been mugged or threatened, you wouldn't want to revisit that same area again!

 

As going after for the running children, bikes, etc., that's classic Border Collie sensitization to moving objects, and you've got a lot of work ahead of you as she needs to be desensitized in order to have a happy, safe life. Our Scotty came with us with a car fixation because all he did at his former house was run back and forth as cars passed and unfortunately, it cost him his life when he got away from our yard and lunged at a passing car. Work on desensitizing one thing at a time and make sure she gets plenty of safe exercise.....others have recommended some great books.

 

I'm going to try obedience rally with Robin this summer and we spend time practicing for that. Brodie is going to try herding and maybe the obedience.

 

You're fortunate that you have other nice dogs to play with. I need to find a nice Beagle friend for Brodie...

 

Liz

 

I figured the reacting to running children, bikes, etc was border collie, but what has thrown me is her reaction to bikes is new. She just seems hyper sensitive now. Since I encounter dogs more than children. I think I will start with that. Not so many children in my neighborhood. Time to take a deep breath and start over again.

 

Thanks Liz and everyone else for your responses. I will call the training facility for the wallflower class and ask the suggested questions and post the response.

[Guest echoica]

If I were you, I would be doing STRUCTURED SOCIALIZATION with her DAILY - outside of classes and walks. Do you have a Petsmart (or similar) where you live? Walk her through there for at least 15 minutes each day (you might have to stick around longer if not a lot of people come in with their dogs)...no PetSmart? Find another dog/owner congregation area. It is very common and totally normal for a puppy to be fearful when they are very young (look at all the new things in this world to discover!). BUT she needs to learn from DOGS how to interact and behave. Even the dogs that she is fearful of. As long as the dog is not completely unstable then you should be sure to let them go through the motions - because she can learn from all types of dogs not just the perfectly awesome dogs Although I believe some dogs really are just off in the mind sometimes - I also believe that HUMANS create the fear through their reactions and actions or at the very least make it worse - especially by not allowing the dogs to figure it out for themselves. It sounds like she is using you as a crutch. Be careful not to let her cower behind you - it's just not healthy and most definitely makes it worse. If she is under your legs...walk away from her continuously until she stops. Maybe throw the food away from you in another direction. Keep her on leash at all times for control and stay CONFIDENT and CALM most of all - pass the good vibes on to her. She can get through this. She is just a puppy after all...you can really bounce her back out of this much easier now rather than if this should go on into adulthood. And since she is still a puppy she kind of has a license to get away with more in the world too (including the annoying barking)...which will help you to interact with other owners in facing these issues. But again, I cannot emphasize this enough: DAILY SOCIALIZATION I am totally rooting for you and Daisy!!! :D

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Yes, it did make me uncomfortable and as soon as it happened my thought was Oh no, I hope Daisy doesn't process that as a more negative association with dogs. I was so afraid the rest of the night that she would process it that way. Especially when she hid under my chair a lot of the night and her body language changed to be uncertain about the trainer. When we were trying to do the first of four activities, the assistant thought Daisy had broken down and was too overwhelmed because Daisy was refusing to come out from the corner. When we tried to bring her out she stood up and pushed on us with her paws and pulled back. Her tail was tucked between her legs with her ears back and she wanted nothing to do with the treats in my hand. The assistant got the trainer and said I think this dog has "checked out" (by then the the assistant and I had gotten her out of the corner and were attempting to work on the exercise). The trainer then replied no, Daisy does not understand what you want so she started by placing the food on the floor to get her to stand from the sit. It began working. BUT I thought ok, but you also didn't see the struggle to even get her out to try this exercise. Usually she is so interested in working for food. She loves learning and will try to think ahead and go through her tricks. She was not very eager at all in this situation.

 

This is only from my own personal experience with my own Daisy, so take from it what you will. The first class I took (once I found a trainer I trusted) was a reactive dog class. This class was my choice after talking with the owner of the facility about my dog and her needs. We decided because she is fearful of new things, places, people and dogs this would likely be the best place for her to start. 4 dog/handler teams only per class, one trainer, one assistant. The dogs were divided by cubical dividers and spaced about 15 ft apart from each other. They knew others were there, but couldn't see them and therefore keeping most of them below threshold. The trainer and I both knew full well before going in that Daisy would likely shut down in the first class at the very least. She told me to expect it and to just sit with her and help her feel as comfortable as possible. Offering her treats until she was able to take them, playing with her, petting her, asking for simple behaviours until she could focus. Once we accomplished this, we started working. Every dog in the class was addressed in an individual manner and we all pretty much worked on different things. We were instructed to keep a journal of our training and what issues/accomplishments we met. Before every class (no dogs in this part) we met to discuss the best part and the worst part of the week and how to address the issues. We also learned a lot about their body language. The second class I took was canine communication which focused on learning our dogs and calming them using massage (TTouch) and how to keep them under threshold.

 

I learned how to read my dog and tell for myself when she was aroused or stressed and she learned to trust me and to know I would let nothing bad happen to her. It's the best thing that could have happened to our relationship.

 

Personally, if I were you, I'd go and search for a better class. You can sit in on classes you know. Go to every facility in your city until you find one comfortable with. That's what I did. I'm sure it saved us from a lot of heartache and problems. I don't believe that in your situation Daisy should have been forced to do anything. They should have just let her be and adjust at her own pace. Of course, that's my own opinion, but flooding and negative associations in one class are enough really.

 

For now I would only let her play with dogs she knows so that she does not have the chance to have more bad associations. Don't take her to pet stores like suggested. I know that is a good idea, but I don't think it is for Daisy. I volunteer with a rescue (called ARF funnily enough) and we show our dogs at PetsMart's on Saturdays. Dogs don't act normal there, sure the puppies are usually fine, but pet stores are busy, full of people and other animals, all kinds of smells etc. It is a place that puts dogs on edge, I've seen dogs who like to play with each other just get overwhelmed and snap at each other. It's too much for a fearful dog. It is a very high adrenaline place and too big of a step for your dog if she is shutting down in obedience class.

 

Take a look at some of these books;

Click to Calm

How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong

Control Unleashed

The Power of Positive Training

and anything by Pamela Dennison (I can also probably add to the list after lunch)

 

There are a few more, but this is a good place to start... I know most of these books were written for "aggressive dogs", BUT, they are very useful tools for fearful dogs too! Believe me, I own and have read them all!

 

FWIW, the only time I've found it acceptable to have a spray bottle was when I was re-introducing my dog to a new dog I want to adopt. The two dogs have a past history because their first introduction went a little sour. We decided the second intro should be done at a training facility that both dogs know, but not too well. We had a spray bottle incase of a fight AND the trainer asked me specifically if this would scare her "just incase". Of course this was after we discussed the actual likely-hood of a fight (which I was pretty certain wouldn't happen).

 

I would go for that wallflowers class after sitting in on one or two of their classes to make sure I like the trainer...