teaching to stand

[bill virginia]

1. would like to have dog stand instead of lying down.

2. BC will confuse down and stand command.

3. it is my fault

4. how do i correct it.

 

thanks bill

[Nancy Bovee]

1. would like to have dog stand instead of lying down.

2. BC will confuse down and stand command.

3. it is my fault

4. how do i correct it.

 

thanks bill

 

I'm no trainer, but I did succeed in teaching my tough dog (who still won't always down) to stand. I started off sheep and gave him the command FROM a down (that way they are different commands indeed) and I use it to also stop the tendency to jump into a run at the walk-up command because he stands slowly from the down and just stands there. Just as people train pups to down when it's already comfortable to down, I'd find the situations where everything is still and ask for the stand. I'm looking forward to the real responses!!! ;-)

 

Nancy

[Chesney's Girl]

Hi Bill,

 

I taught my boy how to stand and it's really was quite simply. He knows the difference between stand and lie down, they are used in different settings and tasks, which is really helpful. Don't feel that you need to have a stand though. If your dog would rather lie down (no matter what you call it) then that stop is all that should matter. Is there a reason for wanting to teach a stand over a down? (Just curious)

 

For teaching my dog, the first step I took was to use a fence so I could use the pressure of the stock as a natural stop. The fence is handy because even if the dog is pushing a little hard on the stock, they will for the most part stay bunched on the fence. If you need to use a corner that would work too. You just don't want the stock walking past you if you stop moving.

 

So start with a fetch, and fetch the group up to a fence and stop. The dog should stop on balance and at the edge of the stocks bubble. Once you get a split second hesitation or pause tell them to stand, then continue on with a fetch as the reward. If the dog walks into the bubble correct them for being in the wrong place (an "Ahh Ahh" works well or a "HEY!"). It should only take a few times before you start seeing the dog "get it". Once they are understanding, test it without a fence. See if you can be in the middle, off the fence and stop walking, and have the dog stop as well. If they do, repeat stand, then continue the fetch.

 

This is also an easy command to teach during chores. If you are moving a large group and have to put them through a gate, let the dog find the pressure point while it's waiting for all the stock to go through the gate, and ask for the stand there.

[juliepoudrier]

Hi Bill,

 

I taught my boy how to stand and it's really was quite simply. He knows the difference between stand and lie down, they are used in different settings and tasks, which is really helpful. Don't feel that you need to have a stand though. If your dog would rather lie down (no matter what you call it) then that stop is all that should matter. Is there a reason for wanting to teach a stand over a down? (Just curious)

Not Bill, but I can give two examples where a stand might be preferred over a down.The first is with a clappy dog. My Lark tends to be clappy, so it behooves both of us if I can keep her on her feet most of the time (I do let her lie down when setting up a shed). Because she's clappy, she knows what "Get up" means, so I used that to teach her to stand. If I ask for a stand and she lies down, I say "get up" and as soon as she's up ask for the stand again, repeating until she got the idea. She actually figured it out more quickly while driving rather than on the fetch (probably because as little as she is, I can't always see her on the fetch and so can't see that she's clapped until she's already done so.

 

The second example I have is Phoebe. We butted heads constantly over a lie down. She's a tense dog and really did. not. want. to. lie. down. If I say "lie down" she would usually stop on her feet and since I really just wanted a stop, I just changed the command to stand, since that was what she was doing anyway. Of course Phoebe falls into the category of a dog who would rather not lie down, but Lark *loves* to lie down, and of course a clappy dog is something of a problem, so in that case it does make sense to teach a stand, even if the dog does prefer to lie down.

 

As for teaching the stand, I would do something similar to what Danielle describes. I don't see anything inherently wrong with Nancy's suggestion either. If the dog understands what "stand" means off stock, then it should be able to transfer that to working situations.

 

In your case Bill, I'd do like I do with Lark and just ask the dog back up if it lies down and then ask for the stand again. Where you have to be careful is not accidentally using the lie down command at all (I tend to do that when things get busy, like in the shedding ring) as you'll just continue to contribute to the confusion.

 

J.

[Chesney's Girl]

Not Bill, but I can give two examples where a stand might be preferred over a down.The first is with a clappy dog. My Lark tends to be clappy, so it behooves both of us if I can keep her on her feet most of the time (I do let her lie down when setting up a shed). Because she's clappy, she knows what "Get up" means, so I used that to teach her to stand. If I ask for a stand and she lies down, I say "get up" and as soon as she's up ask for the stand again, repeating until she got the idea. She actually figured it out more quickly while driving rather than on the fetch (probably because as little as she is, I can't always see her on the fetch and so can't see that she's clapped until she's already done so.

 

The second example I have is Phoebe. We butted heads constantly over a lie down. She's a tense dog and really did. not. want. to. lie. down. If I say "lie down" she would usually stop on her feet and since I really just wanted a stop, I just changed the command to stand, since that was what she was doing anyway. Of course Phoebe falls into the category of a dog who would rather not lie down, but Lark *loves* to lie down, and of course a clappy dog is something of a problem, so in that case it does make sense to teach a stand, even if the dog does prefer to lie down.

 

I was more so curious about the particular situation that brought the question about but yeah...

 

*smacks forehead* Duh!

 

I should have thought of a clappy dog (just never worked one really). Pheobe's situation makes sense too. Kind of what I meant when I asked the question... If you're getting the stop, doesn't matter what it's command is.

[denice]

Bill,

 

I agree with what has posted. I will add as Julie was describing that some dogs prefer a stand, others a lie down and some dogs are better off doing one or the other depending how how the dogs works. I had a pup that at first would sit when all was clam and quiet, that didn't last long. At first on a young dog I simply want a stop and them listening, even for a couple seconds. You have to be careful about insisting on a lie down with some dogs early in the training. Some take it as they are in trouble and did something bad and I try to keep everything as positive and encouraging as possible so those dogs I introduce a stand first then teach a lie down later. There was a young dog here that was super enthusiastic at Kevin Evans clinic and she would not stop for anything, you had to catch her and that was not easy. His instructions for this girl was to teach her a lie down off stock right away - you had to nearly lay on top of her at first - then keep her on a long line and get her to lie down near stock. He didn't want to be as tough on her close to the sheep as she needed to lie down. It took two days but she finally figured out she could lie down. The second part of that is to allow them up rather quickly and to resume working so the lie down is not a punishment or always a way to take them off stock. They learn quickly if when they come to you or lie down and then made to stop working that they will do about anything to not lie or call off. You have to be careful when you ask for these at first that the situation will "allow" the dog to lie or stand. I expect my older dogs to lie even if the sheep or leaving but not a young dog. I too use a fence and corner at first and if I ask for a stand and they lie, then a get up and maybe step back a step or two to encourage them up, then a stand again. Jack Knox teaches a lie down by backing up and taking pressure off the dog and only advancing toward the dog for correction if they didn't do as asked. It is rather counterintuitive but works amazingly well.

 

Every dog and situation is a bit different, you can have general training techniques but then they need adjusted to each dog - that is what makes training so challenging and us better handlers.

 

Good luck,

 

Denice

[Bryna]

Hmm, so if you are just starting out, not knowing if your dog will prefer to stand or down, would it be appropriate to use some neutral command, like "wait", so as to avoid confusion between a stand and a down?

 

Also, I don't want to open a topic just for this but have been wondering, what does 'clappy' mean? I have seen it mentioned several times but haven't been able to figure out from context. LOL, I presume it doesn't apply a fondness for childrens sing-alongs.

[juliepoudrier]

Clappiness (aka stickiness) usually manifests in dog with a bit too much eye. The dog will tend to get to the point of pressure (the draw or just on balance) and then lie itself down automatically (clap, as in clap to the ground). Often (but not always) such dogs are difficult to get back on their feet, even if the sheep are moving some. It's not a good thing (no one goes looking for a clappy dog), but can usually be managed.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

Hmm, so if you are just starting out, not knowing if your dog will prefer to stand or down, would it be appropriate to use some neutral command, like "wait", so as to avoid confusion between a stand and a down?

 

No. My vote is to start with the command you're going to use. It will be easier for him to learn a stop with "lie down," and later make it a real lie down, than it would be to introduce a new command for the stop, later on. Just start with one stop command, and build on that. Derek Scrimgeour does this with his pups, uses "lie down" for a stop and gradually works up to a real lie down.

 

Though as you've noted, some dogs prefer to lie down or stand, my stop command is still "lie down." My old dog Jesse, who will soon be 11, almost always stands to stop, but so long as he ceases moving when I say, "lie down," that's all I need.

 

Now, my young dog, Nick, naturally lies down every time. He would not stand to stop if I begged him to, but I don't see the need to teach this kind of dog a stand. If a dog is truly clappy, he doesn't need a better stop: I think he basically needs less stop, less eye, and more free movement.

 

The one thing you do not want is to make your Stop a fight. Say your young dog simply will not lie down on sheep. Well, if you can get him to stop, and stop solidly, while standing on his feet, let that be good enough for the early stages. If you find that a standing stop makes your sheep nervous, then stop him sooner. Have your dog stop further back, not so close.

 

Don't fight for your stop. Set your dog up so that a stop is a good thing, so that it's in a logical place (i.e. the sheep can't bolt and run if he stops.) When you do stop him, practice short, brief stops before sending him back to work. A stop can mean, "listen, I'm going to tell you something else to do, now," rather than simply, "stop, I don't want you to work, any more."

 

Anyhow, this is my philosophy. Take from it what you will, and if you won't, there's always that grain of salt.

 

As a final note, if your dog has shown that he will both lie down and stand to stop, and you really do want a "stand" in your repertoire of commands, then you can later give the 'stand' a name, and turn it into a command. I don't believe in artificially enforcing either a down or a stand early in a young dog's training. I prefer to work off what he gives naturally, just so long as it's a solid stop, and build from there as time goes on.

Cheers~

 

Gloria