Help! I've created a monster.

[Tommy Coyote]

My little Tommy would rather be an outside dog. She just loves to be outside. And I know its because there is so much more to do out there. She runs all over and chases the squirrels up on the powerlines and watches everybody.

 

And she knows that when I come out it means she has to go back inside. So she takes off. That's not too bad because she just runs around the yard a few times and then she comes in to play ball with me. And I play with her for a while and then take her in. And we are really working on "come."

 

The real problem is when the dogs one yard down come out. She is just fine with the dogs on both sides of me. No big deal. She runs over to say high and that's about it. But if a dog comes out one fence down on either side she goes nuts. She starts running the fence. And there is no way I can catch her - even with a six foot lead on. She is just too fast. And the more she runs the more hyped up she gets. She keeps up until she just can't run any more.

 

And by then I'm so made at her I could dump her on her cute little head. So I don't dare let her out unless I know the people in those houses have gone to work.

 

I just hate for her to have to stay on a tie-out in my own fenced back yard but I don't know what else to do.

[juliepoudrier]

Put a longer drag line on her with knots in it that you can step on to stop her and then reel her in. I'd use it for the "run around the yard several times" thing too as now for her "come" means run around the yard a few times first, play ball, and then come go in the house. You can use the dragline to retrain the fact that come means come *now* not when you feel like it.

 

J.

[Tommy Coyote]

Put a longer drag line on her with knots in it that you can step on to stop her and then reel her in. I'd use it for the "run around the yard several times" thing too as now for her "come" means run around the yard a few times first, play ball, and then come go in the house. You can use the dragline to retrain the fact that come means come *now* not when you feel like it.

 

J.

How long a drag line should I use? I have one at home that is 20 feet. I'm always so afraid she will get caught up and hurt herself. I am not able to always be out there with her but I do check on her often.

 

And what kind of drag line works best? Right now i just put a 6' leash on her. But she is so fast I can't even step on it when she goes flying by. She just knows to run around me and I can't catch it. This is avery smart little dog.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

How old is Tommy now btw?

 

I think you're only option is to keep her on a tie out until you can get her under control or at least a good solid recall. I would seriously work on the recall and nothing but until she is flying at you every time you call her. You can mix in other training too, just so she doesn't get bored, but I would practice recall at least twice a day for 5 minutes or so.

 

"And she knows that when I come out it means she has to go back inside. So she takes off."

 

I would change that too. Make it the most fun in the world when you come out side and when you call her to you.

 

THEN I would work on self control, maybe teaching her another behaviour that is not compatible with fence running when the other dogs come out side. I know that might be difficult. Only letting her out there when you can be out there with her and if the other dogs go out distract her with something super fun until she doesn't care any more. The fact that she seems so stimulated outside could be contributing to these behaviours, so perhaps minimizing her out door time to only supervised out door play may help too.

 

Has she met the dogs down there? Could she be doing this because she doesn't know them and she's frustrated because of that? You could always try to let them play a couple times a week to see if this helps?

 

Oh, you could also get a long line instead of the 6ft lead. Those are way easier to use when trying to snag a dog. You can usually get them at pet stores, you can also make one your self or even go to a tack store and get a lunge line they use on horses. The line I got is 50' and only cost me about $35 CDN at a pet store.

 

ETA: Julie posted at the same time I was typing the long line part. She won't get tangled, but you should be supervising.

[Tommy Coyote]

My little girl is 8 months old now - seems so unbelievable. Too funny. I was kind of worried about the way she ran - I can be such a idiot about things - because I thought she looked kind of funny. And then all of a sudden her legs grew. She is pretty small but now she has long legs and man can she run fast.

 

That lunge line sounds like a good idea. I think there is a tack store in Liberty which isn't too far from me. Not a lot of tack stores in the middle of the city.

 

And she loves to jump. I kick her soccer ball and she just jumps as high as she can and flies thru the air.

 

Really, she is just the best dog. I just need to really work at getting her trained. I've let her just kind of do her own thing outside and I need to get ahold of that. I just wanted to be sure that she got enough exercise.

[juliepoudrier]

You don't have to have a lunge line specifically--you can go to a hardware store and cut a piece of lightweight rope to any length you want and use that (add a snap and you're set). Pet stores have long training leads too, but really a length of rope, clothesline, etc. will do the trick and will be cheaper, so you won't mind tying a bunch of knots in it for stepping on. I like lightweight rope because it's less of a drag on the dog and less difference to the dog when it's off vs. on (that is, the dog will be well aware when it's got a line on if it's heavy). If you're checking on her regularly anyway, then she shouldn't get into trouble dragging a line.

 

J.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

You don't have to have a lunge line specifically--you can go to a hardware store and cut a piece of lightweight rope to any length you want and use that (add a snap and you're set).

 

Just make sure it's not that cheap yellow, plastic-y rope because it will burn if it slips through your hands fast.

[juliepoudrier]

True, though actually any rope can burn you. Gloves are smart, but it's also why I use knots and my foot for stepping on it--no hands involved! (Although you can get a nasty rope burn if the dog circles you and wraps the rope around your ankles. Ask Laura C. about that!) I prefer a rope with a more clothlike feel vs. plastic.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Cotton is best. You don't even have to go far - Walmart sells little packs cut and made up already. They are usually 100 feet so you get two "leashes" for the price of one. Although what you can do is cut one side to 50', then the other cut in half, then cut one half in half, and so on until you've only got a six-ish foot drag line - then you can put her on the shorter and shorter lines as she gets more reliable.

[Shetlander]

"And she knows that when I come out it means she has to go back inside. So she takes off."

 

I would change that too. Make it the most fun in the world when you come out side and when you call her to you.

 

Agreed. Also, do lots of recalls where you praise and then release her back to what she was doing. You don't want her to think that "come" always equals "all fun now stops."

 

The fact that she seems so stimulated outside could be contributing to these behaviors, so perhaps minimizing her out door time to only supervised out door play may help too.

 

Big time agreed! I think leaving her out on her own to self-reinforce so much is going to make living with her that much harder down the road. It sounds like that has already started with her learning and practicing bad habits like fence running, ignoring you and worst of all ignoring recalls. There is no better time than the present to train her to be the kind of dog that is a joy to live with. It really is up to you what kind of relationship you want with her and what behaviors you insist on, which you'll tolerate and which you refuse to accept. That varies from person to person. However, I strongly encourage you to do everything you can to get a strong, reliable recall. While it might not be a big deal if she ignores you in the backyard, it can be a huge and even life-threatening deal if she somehow gets loose where she is not safely contained.

 

And she loves to jump. I kick her soccer ball and she just jumps as high as she can and flies thru the air.

 

Jeez, I'm feeling like the fun police but I would really avoid letting her jump like that. I know, easier said than done. From an early age, Quinn has always chosen to leap through the air to grab a ball or Frisbee rather than run a few extra yards. But at 8 months a puppy's joints and bones are still maturing. She could end up doing some real damage if she is too acrobatic. It's fun for her now but no sense in risking her long term comfort and ability to run and play.

[Tommy Coyote]

OK. That sounds really doable. Do you think 50'? This sounds like a stupid problem but she is so little that I have a small ciollar on her. And the bigger snaps on the leads are too big for her collar. I've got to find a different design for her collar.

 

And then just never let her out without her line on? And work on coming several times a day for about 5 minutes at a time? Its no problem for me to let her out and then just check on her every few minutes and make her come to me everytime.

 

Once she gets running the fence there is nothing I can do that will distract her. I have tried everything I can think of and she just completely ignores me. And I don't think its because she is in some kind of zone. She just ignores me on purpose. Little shitter. She obviously needs more structure than I have given her.

[Tommy Coyote]

Agreed. Also, do lots of recalls where you praise and then release her back to what she was doing. You don't want her to think that "come" always equals "all fun now stops."

Big time agreed! I think leaving her out on her own to self-reinforce so much is going to make living with her that much harder down the road. It sounds like that has already started with her learning and practicing bad habits like fence running, ignoring you and worst of all ignoring recalls. There is no better time than the present to train her to be the kind of dog that is a joy to live with. It really is up to you what kind of relationship you want with her and what behaviors you insist on, which you'll tolerate and which you refuse to accept. That varies from person to person. However, I strongly encourage you to do everything you can to get a strong, reliable recall. While it might not be a big deal if she ignores you in the backyard, it can be a huge and even life-threatening deal if she somehow gets loose where she is not safely contained.

Jeez, I'm feeling like the fun police but I would really avoid letting her jump like that. I know, easier said than done. From an early age, Quinn has always chosen to leap through the air to grab a ball or Frisbee rather than run a few extra yards. But at 8 months a puppy's joints and bones are still maturing. She could end up doing some real damage if she is too acrobatic. It's fun for her now but no sense in risking her long term comfort and ability to run and play.

No. I wondered about her jumping like that, too. You should see what she does in the house. She loves to leap off the bed. She not only leaps off the bed, she likes to leap over the top of Ellie when Ellie is standing by the bed. She leaps about 6 feet straight out. Outside she is at least just jumping on the grass. She has a soft landing out there.

 

jI hate to stop everything she loves to do. Poor little kid.

[Tommy Coyote]

Cotton is best. You don't even have to go far - Walmart sells little packs cut and made up already. They are usually 100 feet so you get two "leashes" for the price of one. Although what you can do is cut one side to 50', then the other cut in half, then cut one half in half, and so on until you've only got a six-ish foot drag line - then you can put her on the shorter and shorter lines as she gets more reliable.

Where do you get the snaps to put on them? Or do they come with?

[Sue R]

Yes, and yes! You've gotten such excellent advice that what you need to do is use it.

 

And, if she's running along the fenceline and you have the long line with knots, use it there, too - but use your foot and/or make sure you have gloves to protect your hands. Break the focus and work on getting her interested in something else, even if you have to take her inside with you.

 

I often wish I had a fenced yard so that I wouldn't have to be outside any time my dogs need to be outside or so I could let them out for some fresh air, playtime, and so on. But, I'm really better off without because they can't be outside, getting into habits that I don't want or that are not good because they can't be out without one of us. Therefore, we are always supervising.

 

When I need peace and quiet, they are crated if they are not ready to settle down loose (and that's mainly the youngster who, at four months of age, finds life too distracting to nap well loose yet). If I had a yard, I'm afraid I would use it as a crutch - of course, other folk's results may well vary...

[Debbie Meier]

Once she gets running the fence there is nothing I can do that will distract her. I have tried everything I can think of and she just completely ignores me. And I don't think its because she is in some kind of zone. She just ignores me on purpose. Little shitter. She obviously needs more structure than I have given her.

 

Are you planning on introducing her to stock and eventually trialling with her? She's the little pup from Jack Knox, right? If you are, I'd get in contact with Jack to see if he has some time for you and your pup, the garbage she is throwing at you is going to haunt you on down the road if you don't get some change, and the change has to start with you and your expectations....I'm just imagining how Jack would handle your little bundle of energy, oy.

 

Deb

[Tommy Coyote]

Are you planning on introducing her to stock and eventually trialling with her? She's the little pup from Jack Knox, right? If you are, I'd get in contact with Jack to see if he has some time for you and your pup, the garbage she is throwing at you is going to haunt you on down the road if you don't get some change, and the change has to start with you and your expectations....I'm just imagining how Jack would handle your little bundle of energy, oy.

 

Deb

I know. I've thought of that, too. I'm not getting her anywhere near him until we get better. He would just have a heart attack. But he knows what I'm like. The first time I ever went to one of his clinics I had a dog that was deathly afraid of sheep. Then Jack walked into the round pen with his staff and my poor dog sat down in the middle of the pen, threw back his head and cried. It took me months to get over that one.

[Root Beer]

I don't know if this will help you or not, but last fall Dean started running the fenceline whenever our neighbor let his German Shorthaired Pointer out to run in his yard.

 

Dean already had the recall down, so every time he ran the fenceline, he had one chance to call off. If he did, he could stay out with us. If he returned to runng the fenceline, I called him in and he had to go in the house. He rarely even pays attention to the Pointer now, and if he does, he calls off right away.

 

The really remarkable thing is that he learned this in spite of the fact that I allow the mutts to run the fenceline and he sees them doing it. They are allowed because they run once or twice and stop and go off to mind their business. Dean would run up and down nonstop. Sometimes I have different rules for different dogs and this is one of those cases, but he got the idea in spite of that.

 

Anyway, had he not had the recall down, I probably would have used a long line. I wouldn't have jerked on it or anything, but if he didn't call off the first time, I would have used it to put him in the house if he didn't call off the first time.

 

I would definitely work on the recall with the dog and keep her on a line whenever those dogs might be out. Did you say that there are times when they are at work so the dogs aren't out? If so, that would be the time you could allow off-leash running. I would incorporate a lot of recall work into that, using a release to run as the main reward. Once the dog is reliable without the dogs out there, I would start to fade the use of the line when the dogs are out there.

 

It takes a lot of work, but it is nice when they get to the point where they will come when called and will pretty much ignore the other dogs, or at least call off of them right away.

[Debbie Meier]

I know. I've thought of that, too. I'm not getting her anywhere near him until we get better. He would just have a heart attack. But he knows what I'm like. The first time I ever went to one of his clinics I had a dog that was deathly afraid of sheep. Then Jack walked into the round pen with his staff and my poor dog sat down in the middle of the pen, threw back his hear and cried. It took me months to get over that one.

 

Don't wait, let Jack help you get handle on her, there is a better chance that what you come out with on the other side will be useful. The method in which you teach the self discipline and control at home needs to be consistent with what she will get at Jack's otherwise she too will throw back her head and cry not understanding why her world just crash down around her. I'd be even tempted to sign her up for 30 days at Jack's house just to get a good self control/discipline foundation set.

 

Deb

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Where do you get the snaps to put on them? Or do they come with?

 

You can also get those at WalMart (or insert your "bog box" everything store here). You can get small ones that will fit on her collar. Whenever she's outside have the line on her for better control and if she gets into a "zone" and can't focus on you, remove her from the situation. Things like fence running are INCREDIBLY rewarding for dogs, so the more they practice, the more fun it is and the better they get at blowing you off!

[Cody & Duchess]

I have taught all our dogs over the year to come using the long lead line. Yes - I also agree with the above that stepping on the line works best. One added thing - I put the dog in a halter - so the line is attached at the top of their back. This keeps the long line from getting wrapped around their legs, just trails off their butt.

[Debbie Meier]

If anyone needs help mustering up some resolve to stop fence running just think about the torque it is putting on elbows and hips, I can just smell those joints burning....

[Shetlander]

Once she gets running the fence there is nothing I can do that will distract her. I have tried everything I can think of and she just completely ignores me.

 

The simple solution is never giver her the opportunity to run the fence. When you have put a solid recall on her in increasingly distracting situations, she may be able to be out unsupervised as long as you can always call her off the fence immediately. With such a self-reinforcing behavior, you may need to do some negative punishment like make her go inside for several minutes when she starts fence running and/or ignores the call off. I was able to very successfully reform my outside nuisance barker Sheltie through lots of positive reinforcement combined with negative punishment (making her come inside). The terrible barking developed because she was allowed free access to the backyard even when I was at work. Very poor management on my part.

 

And I don't think its because she is in some kind of zone. She just ignores me on purpose.

 

I'm with the school of thought that dogs do what works for them. She ignores you because she believes she has that option. You need to train her to a different way of thinking and behaving.

 

She obviously needs more structure than I have given her.

 

I think you can guess that I'd agree with this statement.

[Ninso]

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet . . . if you're outside with her at a time the neighbor dogs are likely to come outside, you want to try to head her off before she starts running the fence. I find it's a lot easier to correct a behavior before it happens, while the dog is still just barely formulating the idea, than after it happens. My dog Jun has developed a habit of chasing cars, bikes, and people along the fence line (which she picked up from a foster who was a huge car chaser and has now decided is super fun). I need to do more to work on it, but haven't taken the initiative yet. But so far, I don't let her out unsupervised, ever. And when I'm outside with her, I try to stay hyper-vigilant to whether a car is going to drive down the street or a someone is coming down the alley. Often I will station myself between her and the fence, that way, if I see a car coming, I can give her a "leave it" command before she even starts to think about chasing, when her brain is still present, and then reward her with a ball toss. I really should put a long line on her, though, for the times I'm not as quick as she is. We have the added problem of her being deaf, so I can't call her off of anything unless she's looking at me.

[Tommy Coyote]

I found a rope for a 50 foot dragline. I don't think they even make cotton any more. I couldn't find any. But this one will work as long as I am careful not to burn my hands.

 

Boy does that line take all the fun out of running away from me through the bushes and stuff. She snags up when she tries that. Then she just sits down and looks at me - and her ears come down to the side. She looks so pathetic. But I think it will work.

 

50 feet is pretty long - its as long as my backyard is deep. And I bought one that is 3/16th I think - so it doesn't have a lot of weight.

[Tommy Coyote]

If anyone needs help mustering up some resolve to stop fence running just think about the torque it is putting on elbows and hips, I can just smell those joints burning....

Really. She just started that fence running and I don't like it at all. We are not going to do that. And that running until she is completely exhausted cannot be good for her. It takes a half an hour just to get cooled down again. She doesn't have the good sense to know when to quit.