NorthfieldNick Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 More ram questions! I've been looking into the IDF that folks recommended... Anyone know of any available on the WEST coast that cost less than $1500? I'm not paying that much for a sheep that I can't go see, and then I'd still be hard pressed to pay that much for a sheep. How do BFL cross lambs do as butcher lambs? My flock is grass-fed, plus some alfalfa pellets at weaning and in the winter. I personally love the BFLs, especially the fleece I'd be okay with a BFL ram for now- I'm in need of replacements; a bunch of those ewes are getting old, and I haven't been happy with the daughters of the rams I've used for the past several years (hence the need for a new ram!) If I went with something like a BFL for a maternal sire, I could deal with something less-than-ideal like a Dorset (most I've seen that have been brough here have foot problems in this wet climate), since I'd just be butchering all the lambs anyways. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 I've been raising grass-fed BFL cross lambs for several years now. They do extremely well. The half-bred ewes crossed on terminal sires (for faster growth) produce lambs that can really put on the weight on just grass after weaning. They grow just a touch slow, but my freezer lamb customers have been just as happy with lamb finished at 9 to 10 months - or more so. Probably they'd grow faster on better grass, but I don't mind at all since I use my lambs for training as well as eating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Obviously I think a BFL ram is a great idea for a maternal sire, since I just got one myself! (And I'll be using a production dorset as my terminal sire this year.) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gail Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Talk to Janet McNally (http://www.tamaracksheep.com/) about a IDF ram. She is in MN so you won't be able to see, but she has EPDs - they will tell you a hell of alot more than seeing the ram and are alot more valuable than what you can see. Maybe it was mentioned in previous posts, but a decision on a maternal or terminal sire will depend alot on your ewe breed and what your goals are, what your ewe's strengths & weaknesses are, where you want to improve, etc. gail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthfieldNick Posted May 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 It's looking more like I'm going to go looking for a BFL. gail, that's actually where I was looking for rams. Her rams look REALLY nice, and if it were my own flock, I'd be calling Janet. Unfortunately, this is for a flock I manage, and the folks who own it have some odd ideas about their sheep. I doubt I could convince them to pay $800+ for ram they can't go see. I also can't convince them to just get hair sheep when the wool from the past two years has ended up on the compost heap! Oh well, the sheep are nice & the job pays well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 It's looking more like I'm going to go looking for a BFL. gail, that's actually where I was looking for rams. Her rams look REALLY nice, and if it were my own flock, I'd be calling Janet. Unfortunately, this is for a flock I manage, and the folks who own it have some odd ideas about their sheep. I doubt I could convince them to pay $800+ for ram they can't go see. I also can't convince them to just get hair sheep when the wool from the past two years has ended up on the compost heap! Oh well, the sheep are nice & the job pays well Hi Ben, Do they respond to business models? If so, it's pretty easy to make a business case for an $800 ram. Suppose he has a weaning weight EPD of +1 and a post weaning gain EPD of +1. That means that his lambs will be, on average 2 pounds (or kg, depending on the denomination) heavier than the average lambs sired by that breed at the same post-weaning age (one pound heavier at weaning, and 2 pounds more gain post weaning). If lamb is worth $1 per pound on the hoof, and he sires 80 lambs per year, he has added $160 in value to your lamb crop. In five years he would have entirely paid for himself -- no need to even consider a salvage value. And depending on the prolificacy of your ewes, the size of the flock, and the value of the lamb the payback could be much quicker. Two additional pounds on 100 lambs at $1.50/lb equals a payback period of 2.5 years. The other thing to bear in mind with EPDs is that they are usually based on a population that is already better than the average, so you may actually see a much larger increase in whatever traits you're looking for when compared to a ram that has been entirely selected on phenotype. Lamb growth EPDs are the easiest to see payback on, but with a little more mathematics you can make an even stronger business case for a maternal sire with high NLW, MMilk, and similar EPDs. ---------------------------------------- I would caution against a Bluefaced Leicester unless it comes from a flock where they are using the breed in the way you intend to use it. At least here on the East Coast the breed has been adopted by the fiber fancy and it's very hard to find crossing sires like the ones that are used to produce the Mule sheep of the UK, which I think would be what you would want, particularly if wool is not valued or marketed. Crossing sires should be very large (crowding 250 lbs plus) very long, and from a prolific, milky line. Their daughters should be expected to deliver and rear 190 to 225 percent lamb crops without lots of bottle lambs. Do not look to the Bluefaced Leicester for carcass traits. Look to him for length of body, frame, prolificacy, and milk. When he was here last fall, I talked with Derek Scrimgeour about mules. The original mule, known today as the North of England mule, is the Blueface crossed to Swaledale ewes. Many hill farms that also have a lowland component produce these mules for sale to other farmers, as Derek does, but farms where they don't have easy ground have a hard time keeping blueheads alive. They have very little cover, so they need very good feed and can't take harsh weather such as cold wind-driven rain. Derek's comment about the breeding program was "We took the two worst sheep in England and made the best." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted May 16, 2009 Report Share Posted May 16, 2009 My guy was bred and raised here and does great. He does get thin on the top when he's running with minimal shelter in the winter, but when he can get under reasonable cover he does fine. He's got a good brain and uses it. He's close to 300 pounds and his lambs not only are making lovely ewes (wow, I had to milk a first time mom this year and it was like milking one of my old Dorsets), but we've found the wethers make great eating. As I said, you just end up giving them more time on grass. They WILL grow out fast and pretty lean on concentrates, too, depending on the ewe cross. Even mutton from this handsome dude is marvelous - better than steak, I think. We served a leg from last year's yearling cleanup ram for Easter and it was our best ever (and one year we did a pair of legs from a weanling lamb). Julie has a BFL from, er, I forget his name, that is imported genetics. I was positively drooling over the options she had to select from - and the best rams on their site were already sold! It's a newish project, apparently and I'm looking forward to seeing it develop. Handsome (my local bred ram) is certainly suitable for the job he needs to do, but he's a little lacking in depth, though he doesn't "downgrade" his lambs, thankfully - there's some good genetics behind him, I'm guessing. We don't have a heavy lamb market here, so lambs directly sired by him are quite acceptable to my customers. Whether I go with a traditional terminal sire or a dual purpose sire (Dorset or IDF so I could put ewes back in the first tier flock), depends on how the pasture reclamation project goes. Right now it looks like space may be at a premium for many years. But if, say, my neighbor who owns several hundred acres of pasture and runs cow/calves, commits to allowing me to run sheep behind his stock for parasite control and pasture improvement - the sky's the limit. We'll have to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 We've been experimenting with IDF and IDF/Dorset genetics that are second and third generation to our region. We have been extremely dissappointed with their feet and overall thriftiness in this wet, humid, and hot climate. The carcasses look good, but the losses are cutting into profits significantly. I would agree that I would not want a flock of BFL as they are a bit fragile, but its been easy enough to keep a ram or 2 around and the resulting mule lambs over hair ewes are very nice for ewe stock and average to nice for slaughter. The lambs appear to take on the parasite tolerance of their hair dams. We had originally hoped to establish a yearly cross back to the IDF - perhaps even improving on the Dorper - for terminal market lambs. The last ditch effort is going to be using an IDF/White Dorper ram lamb next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 Hi , I'm new to the forum but I do know a little about BFL because that is the breed I have had for the past 6 years. BF rams used on hill bred sheep make excellent mules to breed to a terminal sire. I have BFL/Dorset cross ewes now and am going to breed them to a Texel ram. This breed has white wool, no wool on head or legs and can grow on grass with very little or no grain. I'm a spinner and that is why I had the BF but now that I am working and training dogs wool is not a as important to me because a friend who lives just 25 miles away has a large BFL herd if I want Fleece. I paid $250 for a registered ram, which I thought was reasonable. I live in SE Ohio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Ben Have you thought about going the Mule Sheep route? http://www.clunforestsheep.org/bb06.htm Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I'm going to mule sheep route right now. There's a North American Mule Sheep Society (NAMSS) and their website is here. Not that it means a whole lot, but I really like the looks of my Clun mules, but the sort of lambs they produce (and how they do in the NC climate) will be the deciding factor on whether I get more. I also have NCC mules, and making tunis mules using my BFL ram, and probably will have a friend breed my ram to her border cheviots in the fall to make more cheviot mules (since I know they do well in this climate). J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthfieldNick Posted June 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Thanks, everyone. It's not the ewes in this flock that need improving, per se. Obviously, I want to improve on them for any replacements, but they're already big, broad, milky, mothery, easy-keeper type ewes. That flock regularly births, weans, and raises a 180-230% lambing rate. For the moment, I've decided to just stick with the Romney & Katahdin rams I have, and try out a half-NCC ram from my friend for a terminal sire. I've been very happy with the NCCs, and this will give me a little time to figure things out. My yearling ewes are all sired by the same ram as the half-NCC, but they'll all be bred to the Katahdin this fall, anyway. I'd just use that NCC again- he was a fantastic ram- but he died this past spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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