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Hormone therapy after spay?


pansmom
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Has anyone ever had to do hormone therapy after spaying because the dog had aggression that got MUCH MUCH worse after spaying? We have tried everything with Pan and have gotten some results with behavioral modification but the changes have slowed down a great deal now and I'm wondering if there's something hormonally wrong. See my original post in General here: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=23732. I'm having Pan's bloodwork done right now at Dr. Dodd's Hemopet, but they don't test for hormones that I can tell.

 

I read this book for veterinary professionals on googlebooks and apparently before the dog goes into estrus, she has really high estrogen levels that outweigh the progesterone. According to the book, estrogen causes anxiety and may cause aggression. (It was at this point, just before she went into heat, that Pan first bit, out of nowhere, over a rawhide, at eight months. She was really horrible the week before she got her period. Honestly, we were laughing about it after the fact because it totally went away and we said she must have had PMS.) Anyway, according to the book, then, when the dog goes into heat, her progesterone levels go up (and during which time she did not bite and was very sweet and let me change her doggie diapers daily--we wouldn't have dreamed of her being ugly to us at that time). Also, apparently, progesterone will stay in a dog's system for some time, but after it is gone once they are spayed (which we had done as soon as possible after the heat) it can go away completely because the dog cannot make it any longer since her ovaries have been removed. AND SO, what you get is a dog with none of the desire for intimacy of progesterone and all of the anxiety of estrogen, which for an already nervous dog like Pan maybe could wreak havoc as they reach social maturity and realize they can aggress against their fears (which fits Pan's temperament now totally). So I'm wondering if it's possible between the first two rawhide aggression incidents (which occurred before she went into heat) and the next biting incident (after her spaying two months later) she lost all the calming effect of her progesterone and now she has none of it and that is why she keeps deteriorating (yes she hasn't been biting lately thank god due to our good management, but she is growling a lot, and doesn't like to be pet anymore).

 

Anyway, obviously I'm no veterinarian, but due to the time frame of all this, I seriously think it may be hormonal so if anyone knows what tests to ask my vet to take, other than the CBC differential, chemistry panel, and thyroid, I'd appreciate it. Also I'd appreciate hearing from anyone actually has done the progestin therapy thing. Apparently there are side effects, so normally it seems like people do the antidepressants instead, but I'm wondering, we do hormone therapy for women who have ovariohysterectomies and women who go through menopause, and yes, they're grouchy too. Would antidepressants work on them as well as the missing hormones?

 

My vet doesn't even want to do Clomicalm and is advocating PTS so I'm actively trying to find other options to bring to him. Perhaps with articles or something. I'm stuck in small town Louisiana and no one wants to medicate their dogs here. But I just wanted to hear if anyone had ever heard of this / experienced it before. There was this section on hormone therapy and aggression in the veterinary book I was reading and this long explanation of the reasons why spaying sometimes makes aggression worse, and it was the first explanation I've read that I was like, wow, oh my god, that could really be what's wrong.

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Pans Mom, when I've been in a position where I needed more info than my local vet was able to provide on certain subjects, I've called one of the veterinary colleges at a major university to see if I could get more info. In my case it was usually UC Davis or Univ of CO vet programs (and it had to do with my horse). I know some of the colleges have a program whereby for a fairly nominal fee, you can speak to a someone at the vet school about your animal's particular issue. It might be worth a shot. You might also try going online at their web site and doing a search to see if the topic is covered.

 

I think you mentioned that you're a college professor? Perhaps there is someone at your campus with connections to a vet college program within your network?

 

correction: Colorado State, not Univ of Co

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Pans Mom, when I've been in a position where I needed more info than my local vet was able to provide on certain subjects, I've called one of the veterinary colleges at a major university to see if I could get more info. In my case it was usually UC Davis or Univ of CO vet programs (and it had to do with my horse). I know some of the colleges have a program whereby for a fairly nominal fee, you can speak to a someone at the vet school about your animal's particular issue. It might be worth a shot. You might also try going online at their web site and doing a search to see if the topic is covered.

 

I think you mentioned that you're a college professor? Perhaps there is someone at your campus with connections to a vet college program within your network?

 

I'm just an instructor at a community college right now. It's a small town too, we're regional, and only part of the community/technical college system. And as for the university in this town, it's really small and there are no vet programs. But there's one at LSU, in the nearest large town. Their care is excellent. I can't afford it right now, unfortunately, but maybe someone can do a consult. I'll check. Thanks for the idea.

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Thanks to MsDaisyDuke for sending me the below quote from the Merck vet site... Granted it's for cats as she explained but it may be a reason why vets prescribe antidepressants instead.

 

"Progestagens should be avoided whenever possible because of side effects; severe, prolonged adrenocortical suppression is seen even with low doses. Diabetes mellitus has been reported in cats treated with megestrol acetate. Decreased spermatogenesis, pyometra, increased levels of growth hormone with acromegaly, mammary gland hyperplasia and tumors, and behavioral changes may be seen."

 

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.js...m/bc/190508.htm

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Being spayed can alter a dog to a point or cause some other strange things.

 

After Tempe was spayed she started chewing her feathers. She only chews them to about 1/2" in length. She will let them grow and chew them back down. For awhile we had her on some holistic hormones and Tempe allowed her feathers to grow back for the most part. She has now been off the hormones for about 6 months and she is back to chewing her feathers off.

 

She goes Monday to see about putting her on drugs to help her chill out (very manic and neurotic). I am hoping that may help but if not back to the holistic hormone stuff that a vet created for her...

 

If you vet won't try clomicalm is there another vet who might. You could also get more forceful about wanting to the drugs and make a deal with the vet that you want to give xxx amount of months to see if it helps.

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I am sorry your vet is not supportive. Is it possible to find another vet? I will not take my anxious dog to a veterinarian who is not sympathetic to him -- I'm paying for Solo's care, and I expect it to be as good as the care any other dog's owner pays for. Luckily I recently found an excellent and sympathetic vet.

 

I can ask Karen Overall if she is able to do a long distance consult with a local vet of your choice. That is an option if you cannot find someone closer to do a consult and discuss behavioral and/or hormonal therapy options. It would probably depend on your having a vet who is willing to do such a thing, which it sounds like your current vet is not -- another reason to find another vet pronto!

 

My understanding is that spaying may exacerbate existing problems but does not cause them. The most likely biological cause of Pan's problems is something to do with her neurotransmitters. Given the data, clomipramine would be a much better bet than hormone therapy and probably cheaper too. Clomipramine (generic for Clomicalm) is a tri-cyclic antidepressant, as is amitryptyline (generic for Elavil). Ami is the first med that my Solo was on and was a life-changer for us. The TCAs are generally very, very inexpensive, as are some of the SSRIs such as fluoxetine (Prozac). Both are on the $4 prescription list at Wal-Mart.

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I am sorry your vet is not supportive. Is it possible to find another vet? I will not take my anxious dog to a veterinarian who is not sympathetic to him -- I'm paying for Solo's care, and I expect it to be as good as the care any other dog's owner pays for. Luckily I recently found an excellent and sympathetic vet.

 

I can ask Karen Overall if she is able to do a long distance consult with a local vet of your choice. That is an option if you cannot find someone closer to do a consult and discuss behavioral and/or hormonal therapy options. It would probably depend on your having a vet who is willing to do such a thing, which it sounds like your current vet is not -- another reason to find another vet pronto!

 

My understanding is that spaying may exacerbate existing problems but does not cause them. The most likely biological cause of Pan's problems is something to do with her neurotransmitters. Given the data, clomipramine would be a much better bet than hormone therapy and probably cheaper too. Clomipramine (generic for Clomicalm) is a tri-cyclic antidepressant, as is amitryptyline (generic for Elavil). Ami is the first med that my Solo was on and was a life-changer for us. The TCAs are generally very, very inexpensive, as are some of the SSRIs such as fluoxetine (Prozac). Both are on the $4 prescription list at Wal-Mart.

 

As much as I would love to work with Dr. Overall, I think it might be best for me to TAKE Pan to a veterinary behaviorist who could meet her.... Let me check that out first, and if not, I'll get back in touch with you. I checked at the Banfield (sp?) at PetSmart and they are not opposed to medication therapy; maybe it'd be possible for me to work with Dr. Overall through them. But there is a university vet hospital in Baton Rouge we may be able to go to, and I think there is a veterinary behaviorist proper in New Orleans. I am going to check into that as soon as the semester proper ends (this week coming up is the last week).

 

Re: being more forceful, my vet actually mentioned amitriptyline once weeks ago so I brought the idea up during the visit for bloodwork but he is soooo reticent. He just keeps saying she's could get worse, and dogs that bite, bite harder as they get older, plus meds can actually decrease bite inhibition in a small% of dogs. But I'm seeing a difference in Pan already this week. And my vet friend who's in Las Vegas said in this case she thought clomipramine would be better than amitriptyline because it has less chance to increase restlessness and agitation according to the side effects, so less chance to make her bite more. So I told the vet I had talked to people who had their border collies on clomipramine for aggression, and that my friend who just graduated from LSU vet school recommended it too (though sadly she is in Las Vegas or else I'd just take Pan to her - I'd totally trust her!). But the vet was like, "No, Clomicalm is just for separation anxiety... I'll do some research." But he's said he was going to do research before (both for Pan and for my deceased 12 year old cat who had metastasized abdominal cancer) and generally I've noticed when he says that he forgets and doesn't. Next time I talk to him, when he gets the bloodwork back, I will tell him about what my friend who just graduated from vet school says. He really may be the best vet in this area. EVERYONE here swears he is. But I've lived in much larger cities; I expect a lot more progressive treatment options than most people here do. I probably do need to just start taking her to Baton Rouge since she doesn't mind car rides. I think I might just outsource her "psych" care (ha, ha). I think my vet is fine for regular checkups (and he's inexpensive and good with her personally too - he just doesn't seem to believe in putting dogs on TCAs for aggression).

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Oh, and did I mention that Pan looks an awful lot like my pup, Jett?

 

2506626978_da50a85ca2.jpg

 

More photos of Jett here.

 

Oh my goodness, they do look very similar!

 

How do you get Jett's fur so SHINY!?!?!??! What in the world do you feed her and brush her and condition her hair with? So lovely!

 

Pan also has socks (three), and a white stripe down her chest, not to mention a white chin. This means two thirds of her toes are pink and the rest are black.

 

This is a picture of her this morning, you can just barely see the white chin, but she's not all black! When we got Pan, we were introduced to the possible father, another border collie, with whom the border collie mother usually mated. But because she was missing so much white, we always thought it must have been another dog. It's interesting to see a purebred border collie who is almost as dark as Pan is.

 

What is Jett's personality like and how much does s/he weigh?

post-9869-1240686067_thumb.jpg

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Oh, Jett is a pretty normal Border Collie. She's fun loving, and very energetic outdoors but laid back in the house, obsessed with the ball, crouchy, staring, loves sheep. She is initially reserved with most people (and will sometimes growl or woof) but becomes their best friend within five minutes if they continue to pay attention to her. If they don't pay attention to her, she is not interested in them at all. Not particularly interested in strange dogs. Jett has the toe socks and a faint half milk mustache and a white orca chin with three black dots going across it. White chest and about three white hairs at the tip of her tail. She weighs 32 pounds and is very fine-boned. All of her sibs were pretty dark but she was the blackest of all.

 

I don't know why Jett is so shiny. She's just got very silky hair. Right now she's eating Costco's lamb and rice adult food with some raw. She gets fish oil and vitamin E on her food, but so do the other two and they're not shiny like her as they both have sort of curly hair.

 

There are quite a few folks with very dark purebred Border Collies on the boards -- if you do a search on "black dogs" in the images gallery the last thread we did will probably pop up.

 

You are right, you would be better off taking Pan to a vet behaviorist in person. The closest vet school will be able to advise you if there is someone in your area -- I can ask Karen for a recommendation as well if you like. Sometimes she knows people who are really, really good but are not boarded yet.

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Their was an article in the recent issue of Animal Wellness magazine called "For Menopausal Mutts". It discussed using a natural HRT substitute such as soy isoflavones as one answer for the treatment of hormone deficiency. The supplement they recommended was by EstraPet. www.estrapet.com

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Oh, Jett is a pretty normal Border Collie. She's fun loving, and very energetic outdoors but laid back in the house, obsessed with the ball, crouchy, staring, loves sheep. She is initially reserved with most people (and will sometimes growl or woof) but becomes their best friend within five minutes if they continue to pay attention to her. If they don't pay attention to her, she is not interested in them at all. Not particularly interested in strange dogs. Jett has the toe socks and a faint half milk mustache and a white orca chin with three black dots going across it. White chest and about three white hairs at the tip of her tail. She weighs 32 pounds and is very fine-boned. All of her sibs were pretty dark but she was the blackest of all.

 

I don't know why Jett is so shiny. She's just got very silky hair. Right now she's eating Costco's lamb and rice adult food with some raw. She gets fish oil and vitamin E on her food, but so do the other two and they're not shiny like her as they both have sort of curly hair.

 

There are quite a few folks with very dark purebred Border Collies on the boards -- if you do a search on "black dogs" in the images gallery the last thread we did will probably pop up.

 

You are right, you would be better off taking Pan to a vet behaviorist in person. The closest vet school will be able to advise you if there is someone in your area -- I can ask Karen for a recommendation as well if you like. Sometimes she knows people who are really, really good but are not boarded yet.

 

PAN IS FORTY-SEVEN POUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And she's not fat (her ribs are just barely palpable)!

Another reason why we wonder if she is at least part black lab.

I might try the fish oil and vitamin E thing down the road once we get all this other stuff figured out.

Yes please to the recommendation from Karen for the closest good vet behaviorist to Lafayette, LA! Yes yes yes!

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Their was an article in the recent issue of Animal Wellness magazine called "For Menopausal Mutts". It discussed using a natural HRT substitute such as soy isoflavones as one answer for the treatment of hormone deficiency. The supplement they recommended was by EstraPet. www.estrapet.com

 

Thank you, I will check out their website now!

 

ETA: nothing on the website talks about emotional/behavioral benefits of these treats. There is a brief mention that the isoflavones can help "brain function" but it seems like the isoflavones are mostly geared toward physical benefits, or at least that's how they're trying to advertise it. Did the article talk about it from a behavioral/emotional angle?

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