? on moving large flock

[bcnewe2]

I have 2 dogs, 1 is 5 and a pretty reliable chore dog, the other is 2 and still young and immature but coming along beautifully.

We often get the chance to farm sit for some friends that live close.

 

These friends have a larger flock and different livestock than we've ever had at our farm so we've had to teach ourselves how to get things done. I'm certainly not complaining, we all love the work.

My flock has always been in the 50 or under size and that was total not just ewes but both lambs and ewes. So I often wonder if I'm doing things right. I don't worry about it as we get the job done in a very workman like manner but I can't help but wonder if we're doing things right.

 

SO....that's the background now here's the question.

 

When I first started farm sitting I would only send Mick out to collect the ewes as he was the only 1 I trusted in that big of space. Mick and I had to learn how to manage the bigger flock since niether of us have done this type work. He started out by being way to tight so constantly had to go to the head to get them moving then tuck back behind, but by the time he'd get back around he'd have pressured the front end so hard that he'd turn the flock around. He quickly learned to give space in the back so that the lead ewes could see him way back there in the corner of their eye. That works for him. He has a hard time keeping them moving if he lies down at all. All in all I think he/we are doing pretty good.

Now it's Dew's turn.

So Dew the youngester has earned the training right to go and gather the ewes off the 40 something acres. It's cool to see her widening out so much to gather the whole spread out flock. Problem, if I can really call it that, seems to be, she's not got much eye (that's not the problem but a description), she's a bit tight on top, but if I hold her back, then ask her up the ewes don't want to move for her. So I let her try to work it out. She's moving them fine, but she constantly has to run around to the side of the front, eye up the lead ewes so they keep moving then run back and push from behind. It seems like so much work to get the job done. Mick's method seems so much easier but she or we haven't figure out how to make that work for Dew.

 

SO... What is the manner in which most dogs move large(ish) flocks? Or is it all dependent on the particualr dog?

 

TIA

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

If the sheep are used to dogs, and cooperative, one dog can do it in the manner you describe (staying back). I'm not clever yet with sheep (and certainly wasn't at the time I had 70 sheep), so I worked two dogs and still would prefer that today. That way there's a dog sort of out to each side and not only is it easier to control th group, but it's also simply easier for the sheep in the center(ish) of the flock (where the leads are while on the move) to see the dog. In my experience, this kind of work steadies a young dog and gives them a lot of confidence though you don't want to do it exclusively.

 

Speaking of grammar, I don't think I could have fit more parentheticals in there by trying - but I'm too sleepy to fix it - sorry 'bout that.

[Bill Fosher]

Working with a smaller group, try to keep the young dog back enough that she learns the trick of being a little bit off the center line to catch the leader's eye and keep her moving. After learning that she can control the sheep better from a distance, most dogs will use the technique with a little reminding when they are on the larger group.

 

To be technical about it, you're not actually trying to catch the leader's eye -- the eye is almost always too far forward. You're trying to put pressure on her just behind her balance point -- the point at which she will start to think about turning. Of course, she can see the dog, but you don't want to catch her eye in the sense of having her turn her head toward the dog. At that point, you're too far forward. Your older dog is getting in front of that balance point when he turns the leaders back. Where this point is and how much pressure is needed to move the sheep is going to vary a lot, but it is there, somewhere around the shoulder. Push behind it, and the sheep moves forward. Get in front of it and she'll want to turn back.

 

Incidentally, the dog's position is not necessarily critical in this. The dog can actually be in front of the flock and apply pressure behind the balance point of the leaders, as long as the flock has an unrestricted way to move past the dog (and the dog can hold onto its marbles while it goes past him).

 

You may see cowboys riding from the front of the herd towards the back to get cattle to go through a gate. They are applying pressure behind the balance point from the front, which will encourage the leaders to move forward through the gate. I've heard some folks call this backdrafting, and dogs can do the same thing if they're clever enough.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Sometimes you need to do this on even small groups of sheep - that's why it's good for young dogs to work big groups regulaly if you can. Cord had to learn to do it on my sheep and it drove him bonkers - he wanted to catch that eye as long as he was coming around.

[bcnewe2]

Thanks guys.

Mick is figuring this out. It's gonna take a bit for Dew but we're not rushing things.

I like working the bigger flock and then doing some smaller flock work so they get both feelings and not hung up on one. I feel lucky that Dew is getting this chance early in her life. Mick hadn't ever had this big of flock to work when we were starting. Nice to have a variety.

 

Yesterday it was Dew's turn to work the chutes for worming and vacing. I was walking on top the clouds after we finished. She's so much easier on the sheep. Not that Mick is bad but the tension he holds at all times transfers to the sheep, she on the other hand could lie right next to the chute when I didn't need her and the sheep didn't stress about her. I keep wondering if it's the lack of so much eye that helps her feel more relaxed?

[mjk05]

What is the manner in which most dogs move large(ish) flocks? Or is it all dependent on the particualr dog?

I think it also depends on the job- what sort of sheep, how many, the weather and conditions, where you're going with them and your position.

 

I've moved medium sized mobs, up to about a thousand ewes or wethers, with one dog, but generally only relatively short distances (across a couple of paddocks) where the sheep were happy to walk in that general direction. The most effective way of working them depends largely on the sheep: with light sheep in a wide area the dog usually needs to do a lot of flanking to turn the sides in and keep them heading in the right direction, and it's actually useful if the dog slices a bit- flanking too wide is incredibly ineffective. But it's important the dog doesn't overrun and ring the sheep, especially with lambs, that don't have leaders. Usually with one dog I'll be on one wing, so the dog only has to cover one side. With steadier sheep, those that know where they're going, the dog can often just hang back on one side and flank and push in as required. Sometimes a dog can just trot along behind the sheep, just flanking enough to turn edges in, and other times they have to work differently.

 

Usually with a bigger mob (anything more than 500 or so) we'd use a couple of dogs, one on each side of the mob, where they can go back and forward to push up, turn sheep, ease off the force or hold up the front as necessary.

 

The main thing I've found with a big mob is that having a dog directly behind the sheep isn't always the best way to get them moving. The dog at the back of the mob isn't having much influence on the front sheep, which are the ones you need to get moving to move the mob. The best place for shifting them is for the dog to push in just behind the lead (not far enough forward to block them up or turn them), and then ease off the pressure, usually by backing off and going back to cover the rear.

 

But then it's a bit different if it's ewes with lambs, which keep turning back to their lambs and don't want to move, or just lambs, which don't have leaders and tend to just mill so the dogs have to do a lot of flanking, or a mixed sort of mob, where there will be stragglers and sometimes the dogs have to block up the head to allow the tail to catch up or they'll drop off, especially with only one or two dogs.

 

With a young dog just learning to move a mob, we usually work them with an older dog, or go up with them and help them out, one side for me, one for the dog.