Beginner Books/DVD on Herding Training

[Joe Anne]

What do ya'll recommend for the best Beginner book and or DVD to learn herding terminology and basic overall training information? It would be good to if a book addresses questions such as: how often should my dog train, should it always be the same instructor, is there anything I can work on at home (with no sheep available), etc...

I really want to educate myself in between clinics, trials and any opportunity we may have to work with sheep.

Somewhere down the line I heard or read that I shouldn't do too many clinics or training sessions to close together, of which I have no idea what too close together even is???

I want to utilize our time constructively (sp?) and not pursue any thing that might hinder Phoenix's herding lessons.

Any advice is much appreciated!

[Dixie_Girl]

JoeAnne, I am not an authority by any means. But I do talk often and at length with those who are. One thing I was told is that any "command" that is just for sheep, ie away to me, come by, etc. should never be used at any time other than with sheep. However, lie down, stay, wait, etc. can be practiced in the yard with no sheep. I usually take Jackson in the back yard for some re-inforcing lessons. I always put his lead on for the main fact that it lets him know we are NOT out there to play. I practice his heel, lie down, here, and stay. Even though these seem unrelated to herding sheep, it is still a big help in the communication with your dog. I have noticed a big difference in Jackson when I take him to his lessons when I have or have not worked with him at home. I think it comes down to having the dog used to listening to you and obeying your commands regardless of if there are sheep involved or not. As far as frequency of training clinics, I don't know how much would be too often as those who are skilled trainers work with their dogs almost every day.

 

Sorry I couldn't be more help! Best of luck to you!

[Sue R]

I think Derek Scrimgeour's book, "Talking Sheepdogs", and his DVDs, "A Hill Shepherd Trains His Border Collies" and "The Shepherd's Pup", are excellent and easy to follow. I do also think they are excellent references for novices as they are pretty clear and straightforward, without a lot of "clutter" caused by more advanced concepts. In other words, they help lay good foundations without getting into advanced material that might confuse a beginner.

 

Vergil Holland's book ("Working Stockdogs"?) and Bruce Fogt's "Lessons from a Sheepdog" are also very good for beginners. Another video that I've heard recommended often is "Starting Your Border Collie on Cattle, Sheep, and Ducks". All these items can be purchased through Border Collies in Action, which is an excellent source of Border Collie gear, clothing, etc.

 

Some people train on a daily basis and others train much less frequently (particularly when a dog has had its training to Open level). Some folks' philosophy seems to be that "more is better" because it provides experience. Others like shorter and less frequent sessions, giving the dog time to "think" about the work and training in between.

 

As Linda said, avoid the use of words in "everyday" use that can cause confusion with stockwork-specific words (like "come" and "come bye" - use something like "here" for the recall to avoid confusion on the field with the "come bye" command).

 

I would train weekly or more often if I could, but I can't. When I can do work with my dogs on a daily basis to accomplish something here on the farm, I really try to take advantage of the opportunity. Too much "drilling" can sour a dog but real work doesn't do so, I believe.

 

One thing I think is important is to give yourself and your dog (as both of you are novices and your dog is young, as well) the time between lessons/clinics to "absorb" what you've been trained before you move on to something new. You can't underestimate the value of good foundations and the development of good habits in stockwork, both for yourself and your dog.

 

Best wishes!

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Joe Anne:

e I heard or read that I shouldn't do too many clinics or training sessions to close together, of which I have no idea what too close together even is???

Joe Anne,

Two things about clinics and training too close together. If the clinics are held by different clinicians then you could get conflicting information, which could be difficult for you and Phoenix to assimilate. You will progress no matter how seldom you get to train--it's just that your rate of progress will be slower the less often you train.

 

Someone just told me recently that a study was done on canine learning and it was found that three times a week was the optimum for learning. More than that didn't gain you anything, and less than that meant you'd progress at a slower pace. I'll ask if she has the reference to the study when I talk to her next.

 

Never discount any practical work you can do--it's worth way more than lots of training sessions. I'm one of those people who rarely "train" my dogs, but they are at the open level. I just don't enjoy drilling, so I don't do it. We do whatever practical work is needed to take care of the flock and that's it. The Sunday before I left for the Bluegrass I had a friend come over to hold sheep in the field next to my house so I could do a couple of long outruns with each dog since we don't get a lot of that in our day-to-day sheep management. But that was it for practice. Of course some dogs will require more training than others to stay tuned up, so to speak.

 

At the early stages, I think it's best to practice only when you have an instructor or someone more knowledgeable to watch you. When you're really novice, you might not even be aware of making mistakes or setting up bad habits in your dog, so if you can train under a watchful eye less often, you still would come out ahead over training by yourself more often and perhaps making mistakes that are hard to correct later. (For example, I was talking to a novice handler who said her dog was sniffing poop/grass when she worked him. To me that means she is somehow putting too much pressure on the dog. She swore she wasn't putting pressure on the dog, but she is so new at working stockdogs that she isn't even aware that she *is* putting pressure on, even though her dog is telling her so.)

 

Personally I like Derek Scrimgeour's book and videos, and Bruce Fogt's book I think is good, especially because of his folksy style and good explanation of the basics.

 

J.

[Bill Fosher]

I second the vote for Scrimgeour's DVDs. I'm not such a big fan of his book, but the DVDs are nice a clear and practical.

[Joe Anne]

Wow thanks all... I will be ordering books and or dvd's today.

I really want to do things right for my Phoenix's training, so if we have to go slow at it, so be it! I too agree with a good basic foundation when it comes to any training. He does very well with his obedience, but I am finding out the differences in methods for the herding training, and I just don't want to mess things up & confuse or stress him.

One question: I understand the use of commands for basic obedience vs. herding. I did train Phoenix to come to me with "here", rather than come. I noticed that during our herding clinic, that, "that'll do", was used to have the dog return to the handler. I had used that previously to let Phoenix know we were done or finished with whatever we were doing at the time and he would run indoors like a bolt of lightening, when I say that'll do. I have started standing in front of the doggy door that he, literally dives through. Since our 1st training clinic, now, when he is in the back of the yard, I say that'll do and as he approaches me I pat my leg and say, again, that'll do .... and add right here". He already seems to have figured out after only a couple of times that when I say that'll do, he is to come to me (no suprise here, these BC's are sooo damn smart!). The last couple of days,I have just started moving away from the doggy door to see if he will come to me at other places in the yard. My question????

is this ok???? or should I not use that'll do for my "here or recall command"?????

[Sue R]

"That'll do, here" is used by some folks rather than just "that'll do" to mean to stop what you are doing and return to me.

 

It seems to me that sometimes handlers will say "that'll do" when the work isn't really finished but they need to redirect a dog (particularly a young dog or one that is "young" in training) and the dog isn't prepared or experienced enough to simply redirect. So, "that'll do" stops what the dog is doing and directs its attention to you and you can redirect or recall, as you need to. I don't think this technique of using it when redirecting should be overused or "that'll do" might lose some of its impact on the dog.

 

I do use "right here" sometimes but I'm trying to not use it because I use "right there" to stop my dog on a flank and turn into his stock. Therefore, I'm trying to reprogram myself to say just "here". If I'm not getting a good response, I may add a stern "now" but just saying "here" with a strict voice should do the job. There's no point in muddying the waters, so to speak, by adding a lot of static to your commands. Keep them simple and straightforward so you don't confuse your dog.

 

I actually use "that'll do" to "call off" a dog from a number of things - all things that are good but that should be stopped now(like barking at strangers or playing a game). They know that the expression means that whatever they've been doing is a good thing but it's over (at least for the moment or time being).

 

They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks - I find it difficult to train myself, much more so than to train my dog!

[Joe Anne]

Hmmmm, ok... so it looks like I am on the right track. Thanks for the heads up on "that'll do" to call off of "good things". I never thought of that. I use leave it for "not so good things".

Thanks.

I am ordering the book Talking Sheepdogs, right now.

[Jordi44]

My favorite is "Lessons from a Stockdog" - It has some good beginning basics, is entertaining, and has some interesting observations. It's good reading for anyone interested in any type of dog - but is aimed at herding, specifically BC types.

 

Something to keep in mind with commands - I was told to never use "come" to call a BC - to use "here". The reasoning is that "Come" and "come by" are to similar and will confuse your dog - made sense to me, so all our dogs have been trained to "here" since - BC and other.

[juliepoudrier]

Re: the come vs. come by thing. Rules are made to be broken--ha!ha! My dogs are trained to come to "here" but I sometimes say "come here" and they still come. They also come to "that'll do" or "that'll do, here." Yes, they are multilingual! I think it's important to remember that commands on stock are situational, and a dog isn't going to think you mean "go left" if you say "come" when no stock are around. I suppose the biggest concern is if the dog is working and you say "come" at the start of "come bye" and then the dog thinks you want it to leave its stock, but a really keen dog isn't likely to do that and if you're using flank commands then presumably your dog has some basic understanding of stockwork. But since most folks use "that'll do" to mean stop or leave, the dog should be able to figure it out. I guess what I'm trying to say is that by all means try to differentiate your commands, but these dogs really are smart and they understand situational commands quite well. It's probably easier for a more experienced handler to "cheat" in that way regarding situational commands though. FWIW, if your dog is already trained to recall with a "come," you can always use "go bye" as your left flank command.

 

The "here" command is useful for a number of reasons. If I want to call a dog in tighter on a flank, I can give the flank command + "here" to mean flank in closer. For a shed I can say "in here" or "that'll do, here" and that means come straight in where I'm pointint. For a dog just learning inside flanks, I can preface the flank with a "here" to get the dog to turn off the stock a bit and toward me (remember off-balance means the dog is flanking toward the handler instead of away) first before taking the flank command (which has the effect of squaring out the flank and preventing the dog from just barreling in because it's not comfortable flanking toward me).

 

So there really are all sorts of nuances to commands. Don't worry that you'll ruin your dog for work if you tell it "come" or "come here" when you want it to recall. Remember, if you "mess up" with commands, these dogs are very forgiving, and they usually will try to figure out what it is you really want.

 

JMO, of course.

 

J.