Issues with Targeting

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Ok, so we haven't made it into agility yet, Daisy is still trying to get over her issues with working in a new environment with lots of dogs around. She is doing good, we've made it into a recall class with 8 dogs with slow baby steps from classes with 3 dogs, then 5 dog and now 8 dogs. She did extremely well 2 classes ago and then fell apart the next week. Regression I guess, with the added stress of a new assistant and a new dog. I think we will take this class a second time (and third if we have too) so that she can become more confident in situations where dogs are "ready to go" and barking etc. This class is sooo easy for us becuase most of the stuff we've already touched on in previous classes and/or I've already started her with the behaviours, making it really easy for her to get into the working in a stressful environment.

 

ANYWAY! We introduced learning how to target an object on the floor so that we can send the dog out from us and work on sit/stay or down/stay and fast recall. Also to teach them to stop on a dime incase they've decided to dash into traffic. I am using a bright red silicon pot holder (durable and easy to see) for the target and we started getting her to target with her nose, but I've already taught her so much targeting with her nose that she was having issues transferring that to touching something on the floor. When I place it down, she just looks at me, like I'm insane. I also use nose targeting to get her accustomed to new things that spook her. So my instructor suggested that I switch it over to her targeting with her paws, which seems to be going a lot easier for her, but she's still not getting it. I am sure that it's me doing something wrong...I am trying to shape the behaviour, I put the target on the floor and just wait for her to step on it, then c/t, pick it up and start over. I am really not sure she is getting the connection between the paw on the target and the reward. Is shaping the best way to go about this or should I be doing something easier??? Is this normally something that takes a bit longer to learn???? She's ALWAYS been extremely quick at picking up new things, so I am positive that it's me not doing something right....

 

ANY suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks in advance!

julie

 

If this post should have gone in general, feel free to move it...

[Root Beer]

I have three tricks that might help - with the nose touch on the floor, anyway.

 

1. Have her nose touch it a few times as you hold it, but then place it on a chair - one that is low enough for her to reach. Shape the nose touch to the object on the chair. This might confuse her less than having it on the floor since it is still "raised up" to her level.

 

Once she is nose touching it on the chair, move it to something lower, like a step stool. Once she is nose touching it consistently, move it to a low stack of books. Remove the books gradually until the target is on the floor.

 

If this works, be careful not to assume that just because she is touching it on the floor she will remember that at the next training session. Once she "gets it" when it's on the floor, start off the next few training sessions by backing up and starting out with it raised a bit.

 

Once caveat - I found with Dean that nose touching in a stationary position and running to the target, and stopping to nose touch are understood as two completely different behaviors! If you want her to run to it and stop, you might want to start this whole process over and have her run to the chair to targer, run to the stool, run to the books, etc.

 

2. Put the target on a stick and shape the nose touch to the target on the end of the stick. Gradually lower it and finally put the whole thing - target and stick - on the floor.

 

I've found that my dogs will nose touch the object on the end of a target stick when I place it on the floor without any confusion. I'm not sure why, but somehow it makes sense to them.

 

You could leave the stick on it, or fade it away once she understtands the nose touch to the object on the floor.

 

3. Cheat - bait your target. I've done it. It works. It saves having to mess around with shaping the behavior at all and eventually the dog will nose touch it unbaited because he or she will understand it even without the bait on it.

 

Hope some of that helps. I've never done a paw target, so I'm no help there.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Thanks Kristine!

 

1. Have her nose touch it a few times as you hold it, but then place it on a chair - one that is low enough for her to reach. Shape the nose touch to the object on the chair. This might confuse her less than having it on the floor since it is still "raised up" to her level.

 

Once she is nose touching it on the chair, move it to something lower, like a step stool. Once she is nose touching it consistently, move it to a low stack of books. Remove the books gradually until the target is on the floor.

 

If this works, be careful not to assume that just because she is touching it on the floor she will remember that at the next training session. Once she "gets it" when it's on the floor, start off the next few training sessions by backing up and starting out with it raised a bit.

 

Once caveat - I found with Dean that nose touching in a stationary position and running to the target, and stopping to nose touch are understood as two completely different behaviors! If you want her to run to it and stop, you might want to start this whole process over and have her run to the chair to targer, run to the stool, run to the books, etc.

 

I have been holding the target in my hand and moving it around etc. at different levels, sometimes right on the floor. She doesn't seem to be having a problem with that, but as soon as I take my hand away, she seems to be confused...

 

I think that Daisy may be the same as Dean, and I already realize I will have to train the running to the target as a whole new behaviour, so that's not really going to be a big deal...at least I get that much!

 

2. Put the target on a stick and shape the nose touch to the target on the end of the stick. Gradually lower it and finally put the whole thing - target and stick - on the floor.

 

I've found that my dogs will nose touch the object on the end of a target stick when I place it on the floor without any confusion. I'm not sure why, but somehow it makes sense to them.

 

You could leave the stick on it, or fade it away once she understtands the nose touch to the object on the floor.

 

I have thought about this, but don't know of anyone whose used it. She get's touching things with her nose when I point at them, so a stick might transfer nicely.

 

3. Cheat - bait your target. I've done it. It works. It saves having to mess around with shaping the behavior at all and eventually the dog will nose touch it unbaited because he or she will understand it even without the bait on it.

 

Thought about this, but didn't know if it would work....maybe I should give it a shot. I am beginning to think that the problem I am having is her relationship to targeting things and my hand being involved. Does this sound like a logical problem?

 

julie

[Root Beer]

I am beginning to think that the problem I am having is her relationship to targeting things and my hand being involved. Does this sound like a logical problem?

 

julie

 

Yes, I do think that's very logical. When you start to fade something, you want the picture to look as much like the original as possible. But you can't fade your hand - it's either there or it's not, and for some dogs if it's not there the picture looks too different to recognize.

 

I guess that's why the object on the target stick works better. It looks the same on the ground as it does when you are holding it. When the dog nose touches an object on the end of a target stick, your hand really isn't in the picture - not the same way as when you are holding the object in your hand.

 

Any of those three tactics would take your hand out of the picture, so they're worth a shot.

 

The thing I like about baiting the target is that the dog can get the immediate reward for targeting, but then you can reward the dog for hold still separately. So, when I use a baited target, Dean gets his target treats, then he waits and after a pause (or I move around or whatever), I click and put another treat on the target. Then he holds the position a bit more and then I release and toss a treat.

 

The downside of the baited target is that the dog can get the reward even if the performance isn't exactly correct. I've found that a few rewarded "mistakes" don't really hurt anything, but I have to pay attention to make sure that I am not raising criteria too fast or it will start to happen to much.

[SoloRiver]

Solo first learned to touch his nose to my hand ("touch"). I then taught him to target a yogurt lid with his nose by putting the lid in my hand (flat on my palm). Eventually I put a different word on it ("target" instead of "touch") and put the lid on the floor. Solo had no trouble going to "target" on the floor immediately but I imagine most dogs would need intermediate steps so I guess you could just lower your hand incrementally but I didn't with Solo. Solo is a rocket scientist, what can I say.

 

I did the same thing with paw targets. Solo first learned "gimme five" so I just put the lid on my hand and gestured for a "gimme five." Eventually I put a different command on it ("whack it") and then put the lid on the floor. Again, he had no trouble immediately paw targeting the lid on the floor rather than my hand.

 

So if I throw a lid on the floor and say "target" he will walk over and nose touch it, and if I say "whack it" he will go over and stomp on it with his right front paw. Solo is right handed and does everything with his right front paw; he also strongly prefers the right lead when running, and the "come bye" flank.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Solo is a rocket scientist, what can I say.

 

Clearly Daisy rides the short bus compared to Solo! I am actually really surprised by these problems I am having with this one. Previously when trainig new behaviours/commands, we've been able to get a good solid grasp on the concept in at the most, 2 short sessions.

 

I really do think that she's having a problem with me removing my hand, so I am going to give Kristine's suggestions a shot. I kind of like your idea of using the "five" gesture and turn it into "whack it". I have used this method. I took shake and made high five and wave out of it and shaped a sit pretty from that. I really don't get what she's not getting, that's frustrating!

[Root Beer]

Clearly Daisy rides the short bus compared to Solo! I am actually really surprised by these problems I am having with this one. Previously when trainig new behaviours/commands, we've been able to get a good solid grasp on the concept in at the most, 2 short sessions.

 

It might actually be the opposite! I know with Dean it's that he's got too much brain working - if it looks the least bit different, it must be something different, so I'd better make what I want him to do with this different thing abundantly clear to him or he is going to request more information and not always politely!!

 

And if there is one lesson I've learned from the three dogs I've had the privilege to train, it's that they have different learning styles, much as people do.

 

Speedy's style is: You want me to try? Ready! How's this? No? How 'bout this? You sure that's all you want? Maybe we should try this, too? Let's try this! Again! Again! Again! Anything, let's go!!! What's next?

 

Maddie's is: You want me to try? What's in it for me? OK, that will work, now what do you want? OK, done, now pay up! Something else? What's in it for me? OK, I can go with that. Done. Nap time. Maybe more later if you make it really worth my while. (I'm exaggerating, but she is part Lab and she doesn't learn rapidly. . .)

 

Dean's style is: You want me to try? What? Why? How? I don't know that. Why don't I know that? How is it possible that I don't know that? Show me because I can't be wrong. OK, that - done. Again? OK. Again? Why - was it wrong? I don't get it! Why? How? What - this? Was I right? Tell me I was right! Thank you.

 

Dean is the smartest of the three, but Speedy is the easiest to train. Maddie is the hardest to train, but she's the most reliable once she knows something. Dean has a hard time dealing with learning new things, but he excels when it comes to sharpening and generalizing things that he knows a little bit. Speedy loves to learn the most, but he also likes to throw his own spin into the final product.

 

It would be very interesting if someone did a study on canine learning styles. I'd be willing to wager that the results would be quite interesting.

 

So, I wouldn't put Daisy on the short bus quite yet. Maybe you just need to find her particular learning style.

[ziggzmom]

I have been holding the target in my hand and moving it around etc. at different levels, sometimes right on the floor. She doesn't seem to be having a problem with that, but as soon as I take my hand away, she seems to be confused...

 

julie

 

Hi Julie,

 

When teaching the dumbbell retrieve in obedience it's really common for dogs to have the same problem you are with the target....Just substitute touch for take it with the following=)...

 

What seems to work is to hold the dumbbell by one of the bells with the dumbbell close to the ground, then one end touching the ground, then lower it a little more(you get the idea). All along make sure the dog is understanding what you want before moving on to the next step. Once the dog is picking it up off the ground with you holding one bell, you will just place a finger on one bell and inch by inch move your finger further and further away from the dumbbell. If the dog has trouble at any point, back up in your training and make it easier to help him out.

 

Hope this helps~

 

Janet

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Dean's style is: You want me to try? What? Why? How? I don't know that. Why don't I know that? How is it possible that I don't know that? Show me because I can't be wrong. OK, that - done. Again? OK. Again? Why - was it wrong? I don't get it! Why? How? What - this? Was I right? Tell me I was right! Thank you.

 

Daisy is very similar to Dean I think. I can see when she is getting frustrated, the look on her face changes, she is trying to figure out exactly what I want but can't understand why she's doing it wrong and she really takes the whole picture in, I can see her looking at my ENTIRE body trying to figure out if she's missed something. Then she'll just start throwing behaviours she knows at me and bark. That's when I know I have to back off.

 

Maybe I didn't realize she could be so literal. Now I understand how taking my hand away can make it a whole new game. I guess I just got lucky when I started clicker training with her, everything seemed to be really easy and really fast. Silly of me to think everything would always be easy peasy! I guess that trainers are going to really generalize and show the one easiest method of teaching something, especially when you have 8 dogs in a class!

 

I would also be interested in seeing something on canine learning styles...maybe you should do a study?! (somewhat joking!)

 

 

Janet ~ I am also going to put your idea in the back of my head, I am going to play around with these ideas until I find out what is going to really stick. Thanks!

[Ninso]

I didn't read all of the rest of the replies, so sorry if there is any repetition here. I taught targeting with a foot by shaping. Lok already know how to target my hand with his nose. I just put a large square of duct tape on the floor and clicked for any movement of his feet near the target. Then he kind of just had an "aha" moment and realized I wanted him to actually touch the square with his foot. Then we faded the size of the target. But maybe you're asking for too much right away. Maybe clicks for moving toward the target or standing near the target and moving his feet should be the first step. Lok had the exact same problem you described when I tried to go from holding a target in my hand to putting it on the floor--he could get within one inch of the floor, but after that, he just wouldn't go any further. Pure shaping worked for me, but you might need to make the first step a little easier. Also, maybe don't pick up the target in between tries--I could see that being confusing for my dog. If you need her to move away from it, just toss a treat.

[haleigh]

I think I taught the foot-target a lot different than you guys, but Joy was clicker trained then, and it still worked just as good, so...

 

 

One of the first things I taught Joy when I brought her home was how to paw. Once she was solid on that, I held a target in my hand and told her to paw. Once she pawed in all different directions, I held my hand on the floor and told her to paw. Once she was reliably doing it on the floor, I gradually started slipping my hand out from under the target until I could keep my hand out entirely.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I was working on it again using just shaping. It really seems that she's having an issue with my hand being "attached" to the target. We did make some progress with the shaping and there were a couple of jackpot moments, so I am going to keep going with the shaping for now and see where it gets me....

 

Thanks for all the help guys!

[Maralynn]

For SAR I needed to teach Kipp FEMA style directional work - a send out, go back and go right or left.

 

I started by standing next to a platform that I had him jump up on (I used and apple crate to start I think). He jumped up, I rewarded. When he had that, I just gradually started moving away foot by foot and sending him to jump up on the platform. When he had a 10-15 ft send out to the platform down solid, I started mixing up the game and sending him to different targets. You could substitute a carpet square or mat at that point and just work your way down to a smaller target.