Newbie Angst and the Aggressive, Impatient, Intense Dog

[Bordermix]

We have been invited by a local trainer to attend the Celtic Games in Tucson and give a sheep herding demo along with others next Saturday. Another chance to practice in a different place; different stock; and see others' ways of training. We are taking 2 of our dogs so it should be fun. Also our 39th wedding anniversary. N

 

Wow - that is great! I'd love to come watch, but next weekend is Cynosport in Scottsdale and one of our other dogs is in fly ball:) Sounds like you will have a lot of fun!

[Amelia]

Hello all,

Here's a couple suggestions for you Tiffany.

 

Please make sure that your dog is obedient off stock. If she respects you while you're just hanging out, you'll have a lot fewer problems when you take her to stock. I show my dogs lots of affection, but they don't put their feet on me, pull on the end of a leash or bark incessantly. They come when I call them and they understand completely that I make the rules. I even let them in the house occasionally, but they're expected to be quiet and remain on the floor.

 

If things are happening too fast for you when you work your dog, slow them down by keeping everything close and by keeping your body between your dog and the stock. The first thing I teach my youngsters on stock is a down. I have backgrounded this before I ever took them there, but I always have to confirm it initially on stock. Until you have a solid down on stock, don't move on. This takes me a couple of sessions. It may take you longer, but don't move on until you have it. BTW, getting a solid down doesn't mean putting the dog on stock and just lying it down over and over. For me it means asking for and getting the down, then letting the dog have its sheep, usually a short fetch or flank with me in between the dog and sheep. Paper training is tough because there's nuance that's impossible to convey here, but I never teach anything without giving the dog a chance to have its sheep at some point. Otherwise it's no fun for them and you can do more harm than good.

 

After you have the down, move to a flank. Don't use the down as punishment, but lie your dog down if things get too rapid. Keep your body between your dog and sheep and use your position to get a desired direction. If your dog is one sided, as most are in the beginnig, I'd practice that side a lot more until my dog went comfortably in both directions.

 

Using the down and your body position between the dog and sheep, you should be able to slow things down. My goal in the beginning is to get a quiet, thoughtful flank and fetch at hand from a dog that's really enjoying himself and respects that I call the shots.

 

You can do it. Cheers and good luck

[Chesney's Girl]

If things are happening too fast for you when you work your dog, slow them down by keeping everything close and by keeping your body between your dog and the stock.

 

(....) usually a short fetch or flank with me in between the dog and sheep. Paper training is tough because there's nuance that's impossible to convey here, but I never teach anything without giving the dog a chance to have its sheep at some point. Otherwise it's no fun for them and you can do more harm than good.

 

Keep your body between your dog and sheep and use your position to get a desired direction.

 

Using the down and your body position between the dog and sheep, you should be able to slow things down.

 

I've only been doing this for 2 years now and am probably close to getting my first dog to open, I am curious to learn how keeping yourself between the dog and sheep teaches a dog to balance properly to the handler. From what I have seen with the few dogs started in the last couple of years that young dogs are fast at first until they learn to feel their stock bubble. How can you let your pup learn how to do that if you are constantly keeping them from their sheep?

 

You can teach flanks both ways by making it comfortable and obvious to the dog as to which way you are asking, simply by letting them naturally fetch to you. Having a down is important I won't disagree, but your dog, if it it's reading stock properly, will want to stop on balance at the right distance if you stop walking while fetching, then you can more easily ask for a down because the dog doesn't feel pressured to cover if its sheep are going to get away (i.e. you continuing to walk away while making the dog stay down).

 

Just my thoughts on how I have seen what has worked in my short time doing this, and things I wish I would have done with my boy from the start instead of having to reteach it later, but hey, mistakes is how we improve at this.

[Laurae]

I've only been doing this for 2 years now and am probably close to getting my first dog to open,

 

Wow--I'm impressed Danielle! That's awesome!

[Chesney's Girl]

Wow--I'm impressed Danielle! That's awesome!

 

I have had some amazing helpers along the way!

[PSmitty]

I'm not Tiffany, but wanted to thank you for your input, Amelia. (as someone struggling to get a good down on her dog...)

[Amelia]

Hello all, Danielle, you quoted me then ignored it in your questions. I prefaced my suggestions by saying "if things are moving too fast." Once they're not, by all means move on. You asked how to teach balance while keeping yourself between the dog and sheep. Thought I was pretty clear that I never teach anything without letting the dog have its sheep at some point, i.e. balance. But, as I said, it's tough to convey training in print.

 

You state that you can teach dogs to flank both ways by making it comfortable and obvious to the dog which direction you want them to go. I have trained dogs that are so one sided that you have to force the issue, or they simply run over you to get to their preferred side. If you haven't, that's great, but keep training and sooner or later you will. You state that a dog that's reading stock properly will stop on balance the right distance from stock. How do you help a dog that isn't reading stock properly? Judging from Tiffany's original post that I was replying to, that sounds more like her situation, and I was offering a solution specifically to her dilemma. Further, I was talking about "in the beginning" not for the life of her dog. And further, in my experience, precious few dogs do not have to be taught proper feel. I've only owned one. Most of them have it to some degree, but not to the level that I require. And, 1 more further, it all depends on the sheep. It's one thing to properly feel dog broke knee knockers that your dog encounters every day in the same field, but another altogether on fresh sheep in a new place.

 

It seems to me that Tiffany needs to learn how to slow things down so that she can have enough time to figure out how to help her dog work properly and learn herself. My suggestions were all geared with that in mind.

 

Cheers and thanks for your questions. They were good ones.

[Chesney's Girl]

Hello all, Danielle, you quoted me then ignored it in your questions. I prefaced my suggestions by saying "if things are moving too fast." Once they're not, by all means move on. You asked how to teach balance while keeping yourself between the dog and sheep. Thought I was pretty clear that I never teach anything without letting the dog have its sheep at some point, i.e. balance. But, as I said, it's tough to convey training in print.

 

You state that you can teach dogs to flank both ways by making it comfortable and obvious to the dog which direction you want them to go. I have trained dogs that are so one sided that you have to force the issue, or they simply run over you to get to their preferred side. If you haven't, that's great, but keep training and sooner or later you will. You state that a dog that's reading stock properly will stop on balance the right distance from stock. How do you help a dog that isn't reading stock properly? Judging from Tiffany's original post that I was replying to, that sounds more like her situation, and I was offering a solution specifically to her dilemma. Further, I was talking about "in the beginning" not for the life of her dog. And further, in my experience, precious few dogs do not have to be taught proper feel. I've only owned one. Most of them have it to some degree, but not to the level that I require. And, 1 more further, it all depends on the sheep. It's one thing to properly feel dog broke knee knockers that your dog encounters every day in the same field, but another altogether on fresh sheep in a new place.

 

It seems to me that Tiffany needs to learn how to slow things down so that she can have enough time to figure out how to help her dog work properly and learn herself. My suggestions were all geared with that in mind.

 

Cheers and thanks for your questions. They were good ones.

 

Thanks for clarifying what you meant about the stop. So you're just stepping between the dog asking for a down until you get it then they get their sheep for a little? Makes sense now. But I was talking about in the beginning too, as far as starting a young fast, pushy dog, being able to be slowed down while still letting it have its sheep all the time.

 

For slowing things down, that will come with the more work the pup gets and the better it feels/reads its stock on its own. It might take some dogs longer to start slowing down and being calm others all it takes is a "ahh ahh" to get them to slow up. This reading the stock is easiest taught on very dogged sheep that stay with the handler, which keeps things relatively calm if the handler can keep the dog from taking cheap shots (which puppies will do) or the dog moving too close to them, which can be accomplished by the handler stepping towards the dog (not through the sheep unless that much pressure is necessary) and with those school sheep doing lots and lots of fetching until the dog is comfortable at covering and controlling its stock. Then its much easier to ask for other things because the dog has now in its tool box the knowledge and ability to cover its sheep, so it doesn't feel worried that its sheep are always going to get away. That's what has worked for me, it's not so much making the dog be right, but letting it figure it out on its own. Once it understands the stock bubble of school sheep, it's time to expand the dogs knowledge of other kinds of sheep's bubbles, and if they have a good solid foundation at reading stock it doesn't take them long to figure out new stocks bubble.

 

For me I found that teaching a dog to go both ways that heavily prefers a direction is to use your surroundings to your advantage on that, say like a fence line. A young dog more than likely won't go between the fence and you and the sheep if you and the sheep are up on the fence line. Send the dog that direction until they go around and begin to fetch. Repeat until you can move further and further from the fence. It might take some while but eventually the dog should get it.

 

But slowing things down, that will come soon enough with more exposure to sheep and toughing it out. My dog was push and had NO sense of the stocks bubble in the beginning because I didn't start him right, so I restarted him and now he gets it. Anyways, its interesting to see two different styles of training.

 

Good luck Thanks for the different perspective too!

[Mollie&Me]

Thank you SO much, everyone!

It has helped immensely to learn that I am not completely incompetent (haha) but rather a typical newbie. I can't even begin to relate how much my self-confidence has been buoyed by all of your comments, and the remarkable impact it's had on our training!

 

We had a session yesterday and boy, what a difference!! I went armed with all of your comments and, as Laura suggested, the goal of dealing with one issue (thank you so so so much for pointing that out Laura!!) instead of hyper-focusing on everything that was going wrong.

 

And there it was, the AHA moment. My timing improved by leaps and bounds - I was So Proud of myself! I could visibly see her becoming more and more comfortable with the 'go-bye' and almost every time I redirected her, I was able to prevent the inevitable "I-don't-want-to-go-clockwise" crash! By the end of our session, Mollie was flanking (I have to remember to use this word lol) so beautifully that I found myself turning on one spot!!! She had even widened out and slowed down (she's always been too close when going clockwise - counterclockwise she is nice and wide) by the end of the session, and I could see the effect it had on my sheep who were trusting and placid instead of milling around! I felt like I was on a high, just like Kristen described!

 

The best part is that I hardly heard "Watch your sheep" and "Don't let her do that"...instead I heard over and over "Excellent!" and "There you go!" and "Good Job!" and "Great timing!" and variations thereof. :D I was, literally, beaming with pride!! (yeah, I'm still riding the tail end of that high lol)

 

PS. Oh yeah, and I would take a keen, impatient, intense dog over one that you had to beg to work, any day! That's what I tell myself when I'm having sheep run all over me, at least. wink.gif

PS -- Paula, you are so right!! :D I can't even imagine how I'd deal with a dog who just isn't into it.

 

Oh, and I tell myself that the camera adds 10 lbs....

I did manage to get one video a few sessions ago, and I stuck another blog up so that I could journalize our sessions. I would love to get a vid every time, but unfortunately it's a supreme hassle to twist arms and have friends/family come with me. My trainer doesn't have anybody else at my level, I'm his only newbie LOL - I think I need to get to some clinics. I did have a chance to watch one of his former (ongoing? lol) students - who trials - work his dog Flint, as well as another of his students who is training a fairly new dog (though not shiny like us lol) and that was pretty nifty.

 

I thought I should also clarify - the problem that we have with the down is creeping. Mollie's down is pretty solid - it's rare that I have to say it a second time. But if I get a distance away from her she does have a habit of trying to creep (belly on the dirt) towards the sheep and that's what we've been working on. It gets a lot better and less and less frequent every time. Oh, and she is Very one-sided, just as Amelia describes, she is so heavily one-sided that I do have to force the issue, hard. I'm not sure I understand how this translates into her not reading stock properly though? I was taught to follow at Mollie's hip and to make sure I don't get ahead of her unless I'm asking for a direction change, honestly I'm not sure that putting myself directly between her and the sheep would slow things down at all. (Sorry if I'm completely misreading what you are suggesting, Amelia!) Unless you mean blocking her when she is coming in too tight or when I want her to change directions? (We do that)

 

Thanks again, all of you, for your encouraging and helpful words!

[Amelia]

Hi Tiffany, being heavily one sided does not translate to not reading stock properly. what you described as crashing and gripping does and putting yourself between the sheep and your dog would prevent this until you can teach her to comfortably go in both directions. following just behind the dog's eye so as not to cause a direction change is what i had in mind, but as i said, black and white E-training makes it difficult to convey nuance. any way, sounds like your having fun now, so just keep it up. you can do it.

 

as to the creeping down, your dog is just concerned about the sheep getting away and preventing that is her job afterall. depending on the severity and impact on a particular performance, i may not make such a big deal about it at this point. there's a fine line between teaching a dog and chilling a dog and the location of that fine line is impossible, at least for me, to convey here. if it's a concern to you and you want to do something about it, lie the dog down and stand in a position where you can enforce it while letting sheep get away. i would then say that'll do, walk to her and pat her, give her a bit to quiet herself, then send her for her sheep. the idea is that she becomes comfortable letting them escape. this isn't something i would do very often and, as a novice, you're safer to err on the creeping side then on the chilling, if you get my meaning.

 

here's a tip for you. animals don't learn from pressure, they learn from the release of it. so, the quicker you release pressure, the quicker your dog will learn.

 

if you get to the point of trialing, or working wild stock, that creep will kill you and you'll need to do something about it. you'll more than likely know when that time has come without being told. it may not be something that you need to deal with right now, but that's up to you. cheers and continued success.