Contacts

[Root Beer]

I'm still in the process of working out the very best contact behavior for Dean. I spoke to Maddie's instructor about it and she took a look at him. She definitely recommended a stopped contact for him - he'll be waaaay ahead of me on course a lot and that will be a way to set myself up correctly for him to continue off the contact.

 

Because of his body structure, she recommended either training him a 2 on 2 off, but where his back feet are only inches from the ground, or to actually teach him to sit at the bottom, so he is rear end on/2 off. I definitely don't want to go with a nose touch right at the bottom because having his back paws way up the board is very un-natural for him.

 

He looked really comfortable in that sit with the two paws off, so either that or one rear toe on seems to be the way to go.

 

I've seen people teach their dogs to sit at the bottom of the contact, but I've only seen it done where the dog's front paws are also still on the board.

 

Has anyone trained, or ever seen a dog trained, to sit at the bottom with the two front paws off?

 

I'm still considering this, and haven't decided anything, so observations are much appreciated.

[kelpiegirl]

Kristine

Take a look at Dean, and see how he normally strides down the a-frame. Some dogs have a stride where it is easier to stop, and some have a hard time doing that. I would strive to get him to just have his rear feet stop toward the bottom, after a half stride getting there. It removes a lot of the concussion, and will be easier, thus the dog will be more likely to do it. IF you can, video how he runs it now, and go from there. By the way, back chaining is just the best for this stuff.

[Root Beer]

Good idea. I never thought of taking a video to see exactly what he's doing in detail.

[Alaska]

Kristine,

 

You have really good questions - they'd be perfect for the Clean Run discussion list on yahoo, where a lot of experience and expertise resides.

I don't have much in the way of answers for you, but a few thoughts.

 

Are we talking about a-frame contacts or all contacts?

 

I've been thinking about your "Dean naturally offers 1RTO" ever since you wrote it. I don't know Dean at all, but I do have Kepler, who's extremely fast and "offers" all manner of things. Indeed, I see him "try" 1RTO from time to time when we are working on DW contacts (just the end behavior so far), but in his case it's clearly not "offering" a distinct behavior but randomly putting his feet wherever they land. He's just in a hurry to go and doesn't much care about consistency, until I teach him to care. In Kepler's case, he's still learning that foot placement is part of the desired behavior. When you said Dean offered 1RTO, did you mean he always chooses that position at the bottom of the contact? If so, that would definitely be worth paying attention to, but if he's just landing that way some of the time (the way Kepler is), my inclination would be to not call it "offering".

 

I haven't seen a dog do the sit at the bottom, ever, but I can't really picture that behavior holding up well for a fast dog once they get into competition. You and the dog both are going to want to release very quickly, and getting back up from a sit...well, it just seems to me that it would take a LOT of training to convince the dog to go all the way into the sit every time when they know the next thing to happen will be getting back up to start running again. I don't know what you mean by "he looked comfortable in that sit," but would it really be comforable for him to come screaming down the a-frame, lurch back into a sit, and then jump up again to continue on the course?

 

From what you've said so far, my inclination would be to teach him 2o-2o, with the nose target out far enough to get his feet low in the contact zone (I'm assuming you're talking a-frame).

[MrSnappy]

I'm not expert, but I certainly don't spend all that time teaching my dog to drive over contact obstacles only to ask them to put on the brakes and reverse the directional flow with a *sit* at the bottom of the contact. This seems highly counter-intuitive to me, as well as dangerous. And I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that stopping on contacts, no matter how you look at it, is "unnatural" for dogs. ALL dogs. This is why running contacts are probably ideal.

 

I personally prefer 2o/2o, but I would never ever force my dog to sit on a contact. I prefer it with Tweed because I did a shitty job training his contacts in the first place and we are always trying to get them back. Making him stop consistently is the only way we get some contacts out of him.

 

I back chained Piper and she knew what a contact command was before she was ever allowed to go over one, so he had to figure out how to get in her "hit it" position when she got the command while going over the contact obstacle ... and she did. She drives over the apex of the frame and hits the bottom in as few strides as possible and those are valuable seconds I never get to save with, say, Tweed. I *never* leave her there for more than a millisecond - I just want her to hit the zone and then we are off again. Frankly, if you have to use the stopped contact to catch up to your dog or orient yourself, that's not a contact issue, that's a handling and timing issue. You need to run faster, or work on your distance cues and not use the contact as a crutch to catch up to your fast dog. If you run a fast dog, you have to *handle* a fast dog. Boy I am learning this the hard way with Piper.

 

JMO.

 

RDM

[airbear]

IMO, one can over-analyze such things like how your dog will perform a contact, whether he will single-stride or hop in the poles, whether you are going to do a stand stay or a down stay at the start line ... etc. etc. At work, we call it 'paralysis by analysis'. There comes a time, though, when you just need to commit to an end vision and back chain it.

 

If you want a stop on the frame, for example, you need to be very specific in your own mind as to what that is going to look like before you bring the dog in the picture. Of course, you are going to take the dog's structure and temperament into the decision making, but honestly, if you ask 5 people what they would train, you will probably get 5 answers, and you are no closer to a decision. You know Dean best, you know your goals for him (and yourself) and you know how much time you have on equipment to get 'er done. So with all that in mind, I would advocate a more Nike approach to things: Just Do It!!!

 

As for a dog offering 1RTO, well, if I let Wick make all the decisions, I suspect that she would eventually offer a "jump off as high as possible and dash into a tunnel". For her, that is the most 'natural' or comfortable thing to do. I agree the nose touch can be ignored (there was even an entire article in Clean Run discussing the disposable nose touch) but at the end of the day, you need to choose criteria that is very clear to the dog and you. Commit to it, believe in it, adjust as needed in the beginning, and then own it! It might not be what everyone else in the class is doing, it might not be what the world-class handlers are doing, but if it works for you and your dog, and your system of handling, then it is the right choice. JMHO.