Training Method

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Ouch! I can so relate to feeling gun shy about sheep after an injury. I never had any fear, even after many really bad tumbles and smash-ups, but when I had the car wreck, I suddenly got this sense that I was fragile. It's taking me a long time to get over that and it does affect my work. I fight a tendency to go between being too timid about correction, to lashing out too harshly.

[john landry]

I have been reading with intense interest the “Training Method: Throwing things at dogs” thread (even if my two BCs are not working dogs). Last May, I posted the thread: “How do you manage your anger?”. The idea of throwing things at your dog never came up. I quite understand that my thread had nothing to do with working stockdogs. I also quite understand that throwing things at your dog is not done out of anger. Yet, reading your thread does help me understand the many ways of reacting to my dog’s behaviour in delicate (dangerous?) situations. When my dog started running after the 18-wheel truck coming down the road, not responding to my “emergency recall”, it would have been quite appropriate – and probably more effective than my yelling my lungs out! - to throw anything at her to get her out of her “zone”. She wasn’t injured but I was left shaking for hours! In short, this thread sheds a new light (for me anyway) on how to react in certain dangerous situations. In fact, I think that this threat is so interesting that it should find its way into the “General Border Collie Discussion” section for those members who seldom if ever read the “Working Stockdogs – Training Discussion” section.

 

John

[DTrain]

Hi John,

Your dog is not unlike a working BC, you are correct, when they get in that zone it sometimes requires a little more than a call-off command. I am still trying to figure out a way to work with this, I do think it is a good idea with a practical application. I work stock with my dogs and every so often I need to put a stop to things and get everything back under control, that is one situation. I have a dog that can at times think he is working alone. He does a fine job on stock but I need him to be a liitle less on his own. However, when I am working the dogs on geese in public places I have considerably more potential hazzards such as other people, dogs, cars etc. and I cannot stand there yelling at the top of my lungs on a golf course. When I need a stop I need it immediatly. I know exactly how you feel, I could just imagine how I would feel watching my best dog chase a vehicle. He does not do it but you know what I mean.

[DTrain]

Something just occured to me which may be important, your input please if I can explain this properly. The dog I have the problem with is a working stock dog. I bought him already trained. He has worked on open range with cattle. I know this kind of work and to some degree these sorts of dogs can do much of their work on their own. What I mean is that the dogs learn to some degree what needs to be done and I think in some cases they develop a working style. In these situations I am not constantly calling commands. Now that I have taken the dog to geese I am constantly working the dog and I require an instant response to my commands for a lot of reasons including safety. I work this dog in close situations as I have explained. But my question is, will this dog respond in his new situation, should I take him back to basic training, can we re-build him. My expectation is that I can get out of him just about anything I ask for reasonably. What would you do with him faced with my situation. Thanks.

[stockdogranch]

What would you do with him faced with my situation.

 

I think you are fighting a losing battle. Send him to me asap

 

A

[DTrain]

I think you are fighting a losing battle. Send him to me asap

 

A

He may like it there. He has been to Monteray and Carmel a couple of times and seemed to enjoy it. Then again he also enjoys Montana and Wyoming.

[1sheepdoggal]

For both John and DTrain, it sounds as if you have recall issues,(John) and listening/resepct issues (DTrain) My suggestion for both, would be to snap a line on your dogs, and go back to basics, and dont let em off that line till they learn to listen. If they dont listen the FIRST time, reel em in.(especially John, for the recall) DTrain, you didnt train this dog, and it sounds as if he'll work as long as he is getting to do things mostly his way, like you arent always a part of the equation, especially if he knows you to far away to get to him right away. He needs to learn to respect you. He needs to learn he doesnt get to work sheep unless you allow it and he does things your way. And that means he has to listen. He needs to be brought back in close and gradually be given a little more distance as he earns it. John, a throw chain is a good method to utilize, if your timing (and aim) is right, and the dog doesnt see you throw it. It kinda has to be for your dog, like your voice reached out and tapped him on the bum. I would use it if he likes to chase a ball, a method I have used, that sorta puts them in "the zone" if they are a bit ball crazy. You can do it in the safty of your fenced yard. Throw the ball, let him retrieve it a few times, then another time, about half way out as he is chasing the ball, recall him. I like to use a dogs name first ,then the command. If they hear their name, it sets them up to also be listening for the next thing you say. But dont make the name and the command all together. Spotcomere! Instead, give them a second between name and command. If he doesnt stop and return, tug, release and reel. Again, only give more distance as they earn it. They have to be solid at 50 then 100 feet, then 150, and so on. If you havent trained them for 300-400 yards, then you cant expect them to be solid at those distances. Ive often wondered what my dog would do if I attached a walkie talkie on the collar, and when they were to far out for me to get to them real quick, just shout that command or correction into the walkie talkie and see how they take that. I wonder if anyones ever tried it?

[anngreenthumb]

Love it! Love to see if the walkie talkie works. Try it please and let us know.

[stockdogranch]

He may like it there. He has been to Monteray and Carmel a couple of times and seemed to enjoy it. Then again he also enjoys Montana and Wyoming.

 

I KNEW he'd like it here with me! I take several extended trips to Wyoming every year, and we work LOTS of cattle,

 

A

[DTrain]

Thanks I am going to go back to some basic training with him. We did not have the chance to establish a relationship from the beginning so this is a good idea anyway. It may help him to know what my expectations are. This dog has been working on a ranch so he has a different set of working rules than I do. He may well think he is just doing his job. If I walk him thru basic training and his new job step by step this will help both of us. I like the idea of a radio collar. I have often worked at such distances with him that he either just wants to do it his way or he can't hear me. I think if I am right in his ear things may go better.

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks I am going to go back to some basic training with him. We did not have the chance to establish a relationship from the beginning so this is a good idea anyway. It may help him to know what my expectations are. ... I like the idea of a radio collar. I have often worked at such distances with him that he either just wants to do it his way or he can't hear me. I think if I am right in his ear things may go better.

Since you're going back to the basics anyway, it would be a good time to put your own set of whistles on him. Dogs can hear whistles much better than voice at long distances. If you go ahead and put whistles on him, then you won't need a radio collar (which would be at risk of getting wet or lost while you're doing goose control). Darci's right, your dog needs to know that you are always part of the equation, and the best way to do that is to start working him in close and working on his obedience to your commands.

 

J.

[john landry]

For 1sheepdoggal,

 

Thanks for the advice. Will try.

 

John

[Pippin's person]

For both John and DTrain, it sounds as if you have recall issues,(John) and listening/resepct issues (DTrain) My suggestion for both, would be to snap a line on your dogs, and go back to basics, and dont let em off that line till they learn to listen. If they dont listen the FIRST time, reel em in.(especially John, for the recall) DTrain, you didnt train this dog, and it sounds as if he'll work as long as he is getting to do things mostly his way, like you arent always a part of the equation, especially if he knows you to far away to get to him right away. He needs to learn to respect you. He needs to learn he doesnt get to work sheep unless you allow it and he does things your way. And that means he has to listen. He needs to be brought back in close and gradually be given a little more distance as he earns it. John, a throw chain is a good method to utilize, if your timing (and aim) is right, and the dog doesnt see you throw it. It kinda has to be for your dog, like your voice reached out and tapped him on the bum. I would use it if he likes to chase a ball, a method I have used, that sorta puts them in "the zone" if they are a bit ball crazy. You can do it in the safty of your fenced yard. Throw the ball, let him retrieve it a few times, then another time, about half way out as he is chasing the ball, recall him. I like to use a dogs name first ,then the command. If they hear their name, it sets them up to also be listening for the next thing you say. But dont make the name and the command all together. Spotcomere! Instead, give them a second between name and command. If he doesnt stop and return, tug, release and reel. Again, only give more distance as they earn it. They have to be solid at 50 then 100 feet, then 150, and so on. If you havent trained them for 300-400 yards, then you cant expect them to be solid at those distances. Ive often wondered what my dog would do if I attached a walkie talkie on the collar, and when they were to far out for me to get to them real quick, just shout that command or correction into the walkie talkie and see how they take that. I wonder if anyones ever tried it?

 

This is a really nice description, Darci--thanks