Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Bet came into our home a week and a half ago. No great tragedy connected with her - she's not really what I'd call a rescue. Just experiencing wrong place wrong time syndrome, like many stockdogs who are born with great hopes attached - and end up fading into ignominy. She has full brothers and sisters who are contenders overseas, and make regular appearances in the top round of the Supreme. I took her to train as a goosedog, frankly, with no ideas about what she could contribute as a sheepdog. We're lambing now and I hesitate to mess with a new dog on the mamas - it can be a bad experience if the dog isn't used to it. And she had already had a very bad experience with a new mother. But, I took her out right away to see how much control she had. I decided then to take her for my lesson at Robin's. When we were working, it was a very different experience than I've ever had working a dog - except maybe Ben, but with Ben there's been that unpredictable piece - I just don't get antsy about it because I'm used to it. Robin showed me a few basic things I was getting wrong. Don't put pressure on the tail. Back off the correction ASAP, keep her in the work Don't let her get away with stuff Don't talk like a chicken! I've already learned more about the basics from this dog than any other I've worked with. Other dogs I have had, I learn difficult lessons about working with cheaters (Greg the Great, God bless him), "hot" dogs that have little impulse control (Rick, Jen, and Ann), or just really fast dogs like the Tedlet. Bet has some of the same issues as Ted (pushy, brain turns off if she's not right, works perfect when she is right), but works at a much more forgiving pace. If I sorta-kinda get it right, she responds. If I get it REALLY right, she responds way, way better. I work with her, and then what I'm supposed to be doing with Ted becomes crystal clear. Ted and I have also worked better this week than we have in forever. I can see that weird tension starting to fade (thank God, that wasn't good for either of us). I'm still not sure about what Bet wants to do ultimately - she's very, very good at working birds and loves it. But for now she will certainly stay and take up the slack until Ted is ready to take over as main dog. Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Don't put pressure on the tail. Back off the correction ASAP, keep her in the work Don't let her get away with stuff Don't talk like a chicken! Ahh, i love it when a lesson hits home. Think "Bet Bet Bet Bet Behhhht" to the tune of "Bwahk Bwahk Bwahk Bwahhhhk" for those trying to imagine the chicken thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Sounds like a very neat dog, who may be wasted chasing geese. Do you have any video of her? Wouldn't it be a coup to bring her up, and allow her to be at the top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Don't put pressure on the tail. Can you expand please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 I had the same question--what does it mean not to put pressure on the tail? Sounds like a very cool team you're part of.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 I'm gonna let Becca answer. Test time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 To try to get her to back off, I was chasing her around the sheep. Funny thing, when you chase something, it generally goes faster. It worked much better when I was, well, it's impossible for me to describe exactly what's supposed to be going on, adequately. Maybe Robin can help. I'm supposed to be aiming my corrections more at the ground where she's about to go. The fact that I can picture it, but not describe it, is in itself encouraging. Usually I am not as a loss for words, but the head knowledge doesn't connect to my feet! Video would help for sure, but it won't happen this week, Patrick my videographer is much too busy. Maybe later! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Addendum: By "the ground where she's about to go" I mean, she's trying to go tight, and I "make that ground dangerous". I started by tapping the ground, then just putting a foot there, now sometimes I can just point a bit and mostly she'll just give with a verbal correction. I had Ted giving to a verbal correction again today. Yay! We'd lost that somewhere. Probably was the tail chasing. Wheeee! ETA: Darn, meant both posts to say, Bet has some age on her, and some issues, so not sure how far she'd go at this point. Ted's young and not very trained and he far outshines Bet in many ways already (power and stock sense, for instance). But, I'd like to trial her at least a couple of times - I miss trialing and I think we could have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Yay, gold star for Becca! Basically, if you feel like your dog is going faster and tighter as you're trying to get him to give a little room to your sheep, chances are you might be chasing it and putting pressure on the dog's rear parts. Change where you concentrate your pressure and you might just see a big difference. If it feels like you're chasing your dog, chances are you are and he'll reward you by acting like oh, i dunno, he's being chased! You're already seeing results and i love that you can see to back off on the amount of pressure. Good on ya! (Becca is going to have a ton of fun with Bet and you will see her at a trial. They're going to make each other very happy. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Oh yes... Robin and I have had this lesson before with June. It usually involved Robin saying, "Nope, you got her tail again that time." "Tail" "Tail Again". There was a BIG difference when I found shoulder instead. It makes a LOT of head knowlege sense, it's the body knowlege that's harder for me in this case. Becca, I'm glad you two are enjoying each other! Can't wait to see you work her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Hey Becca - You remember years ago when you came out to one of those Farm Fun Days, with either Trim or Ben, and he (or she, but i think it was Ben) would change directions and widen and tighten just by my looking at different spots on his body? I still remember that (it had to be like 10 years ago) because it was the coolest thing. Joan's Petie dog (littermate to my old Belle) was like that too - he'd react to me even changing my weight from foot to foot. It blows my mind sometimes to think about what all these dogs are processing that we don't even realize. Amazing creatures they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Basically, if you feel like your dog is going faster and tighter as you're trying to get him to give a little room to your sheep, chances are you might be chasing it and putting pressure on the dog's rear parts. Change where you concentrate your pressure and you might just see a big difference. Oh OK, yep, I've done that a lot, I have at least one dog that hears a get-out command and just accelerates. When you "make that ground dangerous" to put pressure on where she's trying to come in, are you walking through the sheep at her or is just as she goes out past you? She sounds lovely, anyway. I'm a big fan of second-hand dogs I hope she's a keeper. Do you know her breeding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 When you "make that ground dangerous" to put pressure on where she's trying to come in, are you walking through the sheep at her or is just as she goes out past you? You're actually putting the pressure on a spot the dog hasn't quite gotten to yet, sort of saying "don't come in this area, it's not for you to be here, it's dangerous". It's the Derek Scrimgeour stuff basically and you don't actually pressure the dog with it so don't go *at her*. I train in a very similar fashion to his methods and was explaining it to Becca this past weekend. I do think his terms and descriptions are great, and easier for people to see and understand. I highly recommend the new video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 I have been guilty of this, but, finally, I saw the light- actually, I think it was something Robin said The difference in my dog when I laid off the pressure on her, and where I don't want her to go, is just amazing. Sometimes I catch myself thinking or, or even worse, starting, to do this. But, I can see the difference in my dog. Thankfully now, she is settling in a bit, and we are not playing the pin the tail on the Lucy game. But, it also transferred in to odd take offs on the outrun. Pushing dog- winds up dog, pushing ground widens out dog.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 You're actually putting the pressure on a spot the dog hasn't quite gotten to yet but not right in front of the head, because that will turn them back? Just the ground you don't want them to come into? I like the DS stuff I've read, have been working through his book with one of my young dogs, so will go back and read that bit again and will put the video on the Christmas list. Thanks, and sorry to hijack your thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexie Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Silly question, but is the pushing the tail or not kind of like longing a horse and controlling its speed? When you want it to slow down or stop, you need to put the pressure ahead of it. To get it to go faster, you need to push from behind. Part of why I am asking is the thought that perhaps a few tries longing a seasoned horse could help the dog handler having these issues get a feel for what they need to do without the distractions of sheep and a loose dog. The horse is on a long line and isn't a risk of biting something. Generally you either make it go faster than you want, stop, stop and stare at you, or reverse directions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 is the pushing the tail or not kind of like longing a horse and controlling its speed? When you want it to slow down or stop, you need to put the pressure ahead of it. To get it to go faster, you need to push from behind. Same sort of thing they teach at low-stress stockhandling schools, parts of the eye and all that. Put pressure on behind the ribcage and the animal speeds up, pressure in the head/neck region and they will block up, and in the middle they'll drift along, apart from that zone of the neck/shoulder where they bend away. I'm not sure if dogs fit the model (since they are predators, not prey) but interesting sort of analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Part of why I am asking is the thought that perhaps a few tries longing a seasoned horse could help the dog handler having these issues get a feel for what they need to do without the distractions of sheep and a loose dog. The horse is on a long line and isn't a risk of biting something. Generally you either make it go faster than you want, stop, stop and stare at you, or reverse directions. I would have thought so too. I've spent plenty of time longing horses... but nothing prepared me for trying to deal with a dog and sheep in a similar context. Maybe it's not the same for everyone, but it blew my little mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Actually, a lot of people who come to the dogs from horses make good trainers because they understand and can feel that stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Now, I longed plenty of horses and never made the connection. But, I never did any training, just basic cooling down or warming up of trail horses. I vaguely remember your doing that with Ben. I was still at the nodding and smiling stage at that point. Ben is extremely sensitive to body pressure though, it's true. I wish I had internalized that and known what to do with that then - I think things would have been rather different for Ben and I. It usually involved Robin saying, "Nope, you got her tail again that time." "Tail" "Tail Again". laugh.gif There was a BIG difference when I found shoulder instead. This is what Bet helped me get! Instant feedback - if I was wrong - FASTFRANTICBET. If I was right: happy, relaxed Bet! Robin may have only needed to remind me herself a couple times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy V Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Actually, a lot of people who come to the dogs from horses make good trainers because they understand and can feel that stuff. I would love to hijack this thread and ask the question to the members who have come from a horse training background, besides the above example, what have you been able take from horses that helps you with your training and handling of sheepdogs? It is no secret that horse people pick up on this more quickly than others, like myself, for example. Becca, glad you are enjoying your new dog. I, too, bought a dog this past fall just for goosing and quickly fell in love with him after working him on sheep.. Everything about this dog just feels right, even though to an outsider, he may not seems like anything special. Go with your gut and see where this dog will take you. Every dog has something to teach us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 I would love to hijack this thread and ask the question to the members who have come from a horse training background, besides the above example, what have you been able take from horses that helps you with your training and handling of sheepdogs? It is no secret that horse people pick up on this more quickly than others, like myself, for example. Becca, glad you are enjoying your new dog. I, too, bought a dog this past fall just for goosing and quickly fell in love with him after working him on sheep.. Everything about this dog just feels right, even though to an outsider, he may not seems like anything special. Go with your gut and see where this dog will take you. Every dog has something to teach us. I am going to hijack it...new thread in just a moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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