How to tell difference between a defensive, and offensive grip

[kelpiegirl]

Anyone have any ideas? Where do you see defensive gripping (situation/area on sheep) and where would you likely see offensive gripping?

What I mean by offensive is, dog needs sheep to turn and go other way, sheep keeps on pushing ahead into dog. Defensive- dog feels threatened- and resorts to gripping for active defense. Anyone have any good insights on this?

[juliepoudrier]

I'll take a stab at this.

 

Defensive: You see it when the sheep(or cow or goat) turns on the dog, stomps at the dog, charges the dog, etc. The dog is defending itself from the threatening behavior of the stock. Most likely seen when the stock feels cornered, especially when you are dealing with mamas with babies, and with breeding males who are just a bit overly aggressive thanks to raging hormones.

 

Offensive: When the dog is trying to prevent and escape and the sheep is trying to barrel past the dog. For example, that awesome sequence Denise took of the dog trying to stop the sheep from escaping at the shed--sheep tries to leap over dog, dog tries to use teeth to stop the sheep. In this case, the sheep isn't actually challenging the dog directly, but trying to escape, as opposed to the defensive grip when the sheep has actively "gone after" the dog. I usually see these kinds of grips when I'm sorting and sheep try to escape.

 

In either situation, the dog should likely be hitting the stock in the region of the head (sometimes the dog will end up connecting with the neck as a sheep turns at the last second). Heeling would be offensive gripping (getting the stock to move), IMO.

 

ETA: Dirty gripping, a dog that grabs and hangs on because it doesn't know what else to do, usually the result of a youngster being put in a situation over its head, a chase occurring, or something like that.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Jack put it quite succinctly when he was here and we were talking about working cattle. He says he's likes to "see the cow come to the dog rather than the dog go to the cow." I think this makes the distinction quite nicely,

A

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Scott doing a defensive grip......

 

 

As you can see the eweis winding up for a charge

 

 

 

 

 

OOOps, the ewe meet the dog that won't run off the field

 

 

She then ran back to her flock!!!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Someone told me something that helped a lot - if the dog lets up pressure when the stock "gives", it was correct. In a situation where the dog is gripping from fear of the stock, or lack of confidence about what to do (limited tools in the toolbox), you'll see, I'm told, a dog continue to go after the stock.

 

It's more subtle with working cattle though, I've noticed - you've really got to know cattle to know the difference. Most of the time I have to watch a video several times over to see what the dogs see, as signs that an animal needs dealing with proactively.

 

Here's lots of examples of gripping with a purpose - getting a lot of calves into a pen:

 

[KathyF]

Someone told me something that helped a lot - if the dog lets up pressure when the stock "gives", it was correct. In a situation where the dog is gripping from fear of the stock, or lack of confidence about what to do (limited tools in the toolbox), you'll see, I'm told, a dog continues to go after the stock.

 

Quote: Jack put it quite succinctly when he was here and we were talking about working cattle. He says he's likes to "see the cow come to the dog rather than the dog go to the cow." I think this makes the distinction quite nicely, quote

 

 

To me, the above too statements put it very well as to a defensive vs. offensive grip. They also describe an appropriate grip very well. Not saying that an appropriate grip would necessarily always be defensive or offensive..........it could be either/or.

 

Kathy

[juliepoudrier]

Scott doing a defensive grip......

As you can see the eweis winding up for a charge

No surprise that it's a Scottish blackface!

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Julie can probably speak to this better since it's her question, but I don't think she was defining "defensive" and "offensive" with the idea that one equates an improper grip, rather that one is done in the act of defending itself (the dog that is) and the other is done, for lack of a better word, proactively to attempt to influence stock (for example, stock that are trying to escape past a dog). Or maybe I'm the one who's misinterpreting.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

No, Julie, you are right, that's what I was getting at.

 

ETA: Another question- is it possible for the handler to quash the dog gripping appropriately- as has been described above, by not letting the dog work up close and personal, and not allowing the dog sufficient thinking and working room? I know that sounds indubitably stupid, but maybe someone gets what I am asking? I am asking for a friend of mine who's dog appears to have strength when faced with say, moving sheep from pen to pen, and one tries to bolt past, versus when moving sheep along one stops to fight- it is as if this dog doesn't quite know what to do- but from the aforementioned scenario, he does....

[stockdogranch]

JMHO, but it seems in this video the dog hit at least several times that were not necessary. When the brown and white cow first breaks away from the group, and is given an "out" (meaning "away" in this case) command, the dog doesn't come far enough around to turn her, and then the dog comes inside, to the go-bye side, and hits her on the nose (somewhere around :41). All this causes the dog to have to do a whole lot of work to turn her back the right way. At 1:11 the brown/white starts to move to the right (away from the gate), but the dog moves to the left (rather than covering her), further encouraging this one to move away from the rest of group. At 1:23 the dog comes in for a nose hit, but doesn't hold its ground and keep the pressure behind her; instead it immediately cuts back in to the go-bye side again, causing the cow to turn back again.

 

To me, and I may be way off base here, not having seen this project in person, and I hope I am not offending someone's prize cattle dog, but I see several things going on here: one, this dog needs to read its stock. It seems the first tool out of its box is a hit, rather than just flanking to a proper position, holding ground, then hitting only if necessary. I firmly believe a hit should be the last tool out of the box, having tried all the nicer methods of moving the stock first, and determining that this one is really not going to move unless a hit is forthcoming. Second, this dog needs a heel hit--every time it could/should have used a heel hit to move the cow in the proper direction (or even as encouragement to keep moving in the desired direction), the dog comes round to take a nose, causing the cow to turn back.

 

A

[stockdogranch]

I am asking for a friend of mine who's dog appears to have strength when faced with say, moving sheep from pen to pen, and one tries to bolt past, versus when moving sheep along one stops to fight- it is as if this dog doesn't quite know what to do- but from the aforementioned scenario, he does....

 

Not sure I am understanding this scenario correctly, but is kind of sounds like when the sheep are moving, as in breaking away quickly, the dog is pretty "brave." But when faced with a serious confrontation--slow, deliberate, stare at the dog, in its face kind of thing, the dog is less "brave"? That would be a confidence issue to me...

A

[kelpiegirl]

Maybe- may be a contextual thing. If the dog is holding for feet trimming or such, gate can be left open, sheep don't bother to challenge the dog, as the dog will get up and hit if necessary. If, on the fetch say, the dog comes on strong - too pushy, the dog then knows by the handler yelling TIME, that it shouldn't do that, but the sheep take this TIME command as an "uh oh, better look behind" statement, then turn and face the dog, the dog is left not knowing what to do. Besides being a confidence issue, could this be exacerbated by the dog a) not having experience with sheep like this, the dog knowing that he should lay off, but doesn't, and now will stay FAR off, or is it just simply a weak dog? What does one do in this situation, knowing that the dog CAN be confident in some areas, but not others?

[Shoofly]

I'd agree with Anna. In the former scenario, the dog's instinct is taking over and he's reacting with a grip before he can stop and think about it. In the latter, things are slowed down and time to think about what's happening is giving the dog time to doubt himself.

[stockdogranch]

If, on the fetch say, the dog comes on strong - too pushy, the dog then knows by the handler yelling TIME, that it shouldn't do that, but the sheep take this TIME command as an "uh oh, better look behind" statement, then turn and face the dog, the dog is left not knowing what to do.

 

OK, now I see this an yet another different scenario. In this case, the dog is pushy on the fetch, and while I doubt the SHEEP are taking any kind of a command to mean anything at all, seems to me the dog has gotten too far inside the "bubble"--that is, it's putting too much pressure on that particular sheep, and so it turns around to face the dog. In this case, if I am reading this scenario correctly, I'd take the pressure off the sheep (stop the dog). More often than not, the sheep will then turn and go with its friends,

A

[kelpiegirl]

When this happened with my dog, someone called it "stinging" the sheep- which I'd not heard of before, but it makes for an apt visual. I have been taught that it is best to keep your dog off sheep- for all the usual reasons, but also, because if your dog is faced with a ewe that challenges, there is room for that dog to take that forward motion, and THAT is what makes all the difference... This has been interesting conversation for sure. I will forward the information to my friend. Perhaps I will see if we can get some video.