kelpiegirl Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I could not figure out why my dog was occasionally being well, WEIRD on her outrun. It wasn't a lot, but it was giving me fits, because I could not for the life of me see why... What happened was she would start off all wrong, and then be tight, and well, it wasn't acceptable- none of it to me, and this is NOT her normal M.O. So, I assume many of us train the outrun by moving away from our dogs as we send them- parallel away, and gradually decrease that, to just standing still. Well, we were at the standing still part, but apparently, I was not. I started leaning into her and I had the stick in that hand, so when I sent her she would be very confused. So, yesterday, I fixed my stupidity, and not one single unacceptable outrun- they were all good. Why do I do this to my dog. Thank goodness they are forgiving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRANK DOWNEY Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 If my dogs wants to run tight on the outrun then I will get between the stock and dog and off to the side that I'm sending in an attempt to push them out as they bend on the outrun.I take alot more time on the outrun as compared to other areas of training because I really believe this is the foundation of working and this move will be made almost everytime they are worked,hince the more training on it.Trying not to drill,and I will mix it up alot to keep frome drilling but the outrun is very improtant to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Julie - I'm having a hard time envisioning what you are saying about "moving away...parallel away" when sending the dog. Could you clarify? You may just be saying something that I've done (or should have done) but I'm having a hard time translating your words into a visual. I can understand what you are saying about standing still. My Celt has a very natural outrun and was very easy to start. Bute, on the other hand, has been a natural at running up the middle, getting into the center of his sheep, and then looking totally confused when they go every which way, like "now what?". He's started getting the idea of the outrun down, at least at short distances, and has amazed me at what he can do when the sheep make a break for "home". When that happens, he seems to put his "thinker" on hold and let the instinct take over, and actually has done some nice casts out and around to intercept them (even on his uncomfy side - it's surprising what can happen when a person or animal lets their instinct take over instead of conscious thought). Of course, Bute only gets on sheep about once a month and, like Celt, progress will be slow with less experience and with a forever-novice handler like myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted January 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Okay, here is what I do: Sheep at noon. I am at 6:00. When I first started Lucy, I was half way between she and the sheep. I would send her, and be there to ensure she went around- now, I have pictures of her first time on sheep, and she went naturally around-but sometimes, in their zest to get there, there are variations As we progressed, I moved closer to the dog, and further from the sheep. If I wanted Lucy to do an away, I would step off to the come by side, and send her. If I wanted her to do a come by, I would step off the the away side and send her. Gradually, I just got to the point where I didn't move at all, just leaned a bit. Then, I worked on just being stock still. But, at some point she got tight, and without me realizing it, I leaned in to make her push out- this is the antithesis of what we had always done. I should video the difference in my dog. Now, I have been to clinics where I have been told to push into my dog- usually with a rake, and to push them out. Well, all that does is make Lucy want to go the other way. She feels my pressure- when I do this like I have described above, I believe it works because the pressure is coming off the dog. She knows what an outrun is, and I need to allow her to do it. This may be antithetical to many folks, but it works for Lucy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Sounds like you've been to a Jack Knox clinic. I was so bad at leaning into the dog that I had to actually turn around, bend over and pick a blade of grass to just stop thinking about it or is that reacting instead of thinking? I've gotten better but can still find myself leaning in my dog when I'm trying to get my yougster to lie down. It's the same concept. Give the dog the chance to be right, don't make it, then correct it if it's wrong. Making a dog (as in pushing a dog out) without using sheep to help the dog understand why it must give has never worked for us. Both my dogs will punish the sheep if I don't make since, so it sure keeps me trying to stay on track! DUH.....It's so hard to retrain myself but the dogs are forgiving! Isn't it cool when you figure out little small thing that we are doing to "help" the dog and then make a change and things go right? Gotta love it! The best lesson I've learned and still learn everyday is to use the sheep to teach the dog, not force the dog. Kathy Knox's words that took over a year to sink in! Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Julie - Okay, I am very familiar with what you just described but I couldn't figure it out from "the short version". And, yes, when you talk about relieving the pressure, that is very "Jack Knox". And it is something I have an absolutely horrible time putting into use as it goes contrary to my nature and a large part of my training (which says something that is not good about both my nature and that training). Thanks for replying. Kristin - I am glad to know I am not the only one with trouble implementing this, but I have to say that I am taking a lot longer than a year. Old lady, bad habits, not much opportunity to practice - all things that make it a slow learning curve for me. Thank you for your comments, also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 heck Sue, It took me a year to just figure out what she was saying and how it could contain to lots of areas. Not like it was solid in my thoughts or I don't find myself reverting to trying to "make" the dog do something. I now look at things kinda like, what is the dog thinking or feeling and how can I use the sheep to help him see/feel it differently instead of just do it my way cause I say. Funny it's kind of a momma thing in my mind. Keeping those "kids" safe all the time taught them nothing but mommy will keep us right. Letting them make mistakes and learning from them is what made them capable grown-ups! Do we ever stop trying to be in control all the time? It sure makes it a bit easier if we learn to let go of the responsibility sometimes. Taking the pressure off! Yes, I'm old with bad habits too! Let’s use that one! I admire Julie for working so hard to figure things out then actually putting it on here for others to learn from. I enjoy hearing her stories of revelations and dog training! Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Yes, but Julie is so embarrassing for me because she seems to pick things up or think them out so much faster than I ever do! She does post a lot of good questions and thoughts. Thanks, Julie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted January 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Trust me when I say, it can take me eons to figure many things out. I post in training, because I can't ask bf "hey, why do you think she's doing this?", or my family- "is it the pressure that's causing that?". I am heartened to know, in some ways, that other people go through the same thing as me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Trust me when I say, it can take me eons to figure many things out. I post in training, because I can't ask bf "hey, why do you think she's doing this?", or my family- "is it the pressure that's causing that?". I am heartened to know, in some ways, that other people go through the same thing as me! You'd be surprised at what someone who knows nothing about dogs or sheep can tell you if they are observant. Someone who's just watching and trying to figure out what is going on can see things you might not. The telling moment will come something like; "well I don't know anything about this dog training stuff, but every time the dog goes wide you do this and when he doesn't, you are doing that. Could that be making a difference?" At which point you mumble something about "suppose it's possible" and go out and fix it. Pearse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.